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Frustrated..changed to bigger tank and can't grow plants anymore!!!

C

curefan

Member
Joined
11 Feb 2009
Messages
167
Location
Ireland
Please help!!!
Im hoping somebody can put their finger on my problem. Ive grown Cuba and hairgrass in my old set up with no issues. Now I'm spending a fortune on killing plants. What i want to grow is
Hemianthus Micranthemoides, Monte Carlo and Cuba.My setup is as below:

clear.gif
Tank 535L approx
Arcadia T5 Luminaire 1500mm 4x80W (ran with just 2 tubes on at first)
Tunze 6045 Nanostream pump x2 both open full......4500L/h x2
Eheim 2180 thermo filter (1700L/H)
Co2 injected inline via Atomizer to spray bar at back of tank (Tunze 6045 Nanostream either side of spray bar)

Co2 on about 3hrs before lights on and off about 2hrs before lights out. Ph profile......Ph is at 7 before co2 on and drops to about 6.3 min. If i up the Co2 anymore the fish suffer. I know Dropchecker is not so important but it is on the yellow side of green. Lights are on for about 6hrs.

Now I know what you are going to say....FLOW and CO2 distribution!

.....Well the Green Machine told me that the filter is fine for my tank size, but as I thought there still might be a flow issue, i added the 2 Nanostreams. There seems to be a fine mist of co2 all over the tank.
I tried running with all 4 lights on aswell but this made no difference. I do have clear perspex over the tank to prevent evaporation but not sure if this is blocking light....wouldn't think so???

Do I really need to add another filter? Do Nanostreams not suffice?

Ferts.....I was dosing about 40ml of Tropica Specialised a day. Before that I was using dry ferts but wasn't having much joy. see dose below:

Day 1: 1 teaspoon of Trace
Day 2: 2 of KNO3, 1 of KH2PO4, 4 of MGSO4
Day 3: REST
Day 4: REST
Day5: 2 of KNO3, 1 of KH2PO4, 4 of MGSO4
Day6: 1 Trace
Day 7: 2 of KNO3, 1 of KH2PO4, 4 of MGSO4

So changed back to Tropica as i had success with it on my old tank but no joy.

All comments and suggestions most welcome, anything obvious I'm missing???.....going bananas here!!

Thanks, Dave.
 
At first glance i can't see faults.
As an owner of a large tank i can just state high tech and big tanks are not easy, somehow you have to tweak it a lot to get it to work. I would say as first suggestion i would go for a larger or added filterpump and have the spraybar over the full length. I tried with two bigass Koralia's and it was hard to get a good flow. If i wanted to go high tech again that would be my first thing, get a tank-long spraybar and make sure i have a big turnover going through that spraybar.
 
Hmm, this sounds very similar to my circumstances. I've done a complete teardown as a result. I've never grown a healthy plant in it so far.

I never considered the perspex lid to be an issue, but you seem to be having the same growth problem. I've made my own lid due to the tank causing damp in the room.

I wonder if the light is being filtered by the perspex somehow?
 
Is there any algae in your tank? This would be a good indication that your lights are too bright and you are no doubt nuking your plants with radiation.
 
What are the symptoms of the plants that are dying? Discolouration, holes in leafs etc? Do they even try to carpet or do they start growing upwards?

I've bought some tissue cultured plants that are grown in jelly, I've had no success with these type of plants even though they're meant to be better. They last a few weeks and then melt completely, I'm interested to know if you are using the same.
 
320W over 140USG seems a lot to me even with the perspex. When you say you ran with 2 tubes at first how long was this for? And did you have problems when you were using the 2?

You seem to have enough flow. More than I would use and CO2 drop seems OK however you can of course play with the powerheads too make sure the circulation is good.
 
Julian said:
What are the symptoms of the plants that are dying? Discolouration, holes in leafs etc? Do they even try to carpet or do they start growing upwards?

I've bought some tissue cultured plants that are grown in jelly, I've had no success with these type of plants even though they're meant to be better. They last a few weeks and then melt completely, I'm interested to know if you are using the same.
Click to expand...

Yes they melted completely and they were in Jelly but the Cuba wasn't which took a lot longer to die.....did you have success with non jelly plants after???
 
Edvet said:
At first glance i can't see faults.
As an owner of a large tank i can just state high tech and big tanks are not easy, somehow you have to tweak it a lot to get it to work. I would say as first suggestion i would go for a larger or added filterpump and have the spraybar over the full length. I tried with two bigass Koralia's and it was hard to get a good flow. If i wanted to go high tech again that would be my first thing, get a tank-long spraybar and make sure i have a big turnover going through that spraybar.
Click to expand...

My current filter spray bar does not go the full width of the tank, if i added another filter, would i need co2 coming from both spray bars or would the one do......dont like the thought of 2 co2 cylinders under tank as i would barely fit in another filter!!!
 
320Watts over 120 US Gals is 2.6W/gal which is high light level, so unless your CO2 is 100% spot on you will be vaporising your plants, turning them to mush and providing food for algae.

Also the plants in jelly are generally grown emmersed, thus initially suffer when they are planted under water. They are used to having CO2 at 300ppm in air and suddenly dunked in water with 30ppm.

Definitive explanation here.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dragons-grove-mc-melt.34306/page-4#post-384246

I noticed the plants I bought couple of weeks ago, had a symbol on the label and had to ask what it meant. It meant plants were gown immersed, thus were fine for planting in water straight away. Shop didn't know anything about "other" non immersed plants as they didn't sell them. Anyway after planting in my tank, they are off....no sign of melt or algae either. If I remember I will photograph the labels & symbol.
 
ian_m said:
320Watts over 120 US Gals is 2.6W/gal which is high light level, so unless your CO2 is 100% spot on you will be vaporising your plants, turning them to mush and providing food for algae.

Also the plants in jelly are generally grown emmersed, thus initially suffer when they are planted under water. They are used to having CO2 at 300ppm in air and suddenly dunked in water with 30ppm.

Definitive explanation here.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dragons-grove-mc-melt.34306/page-4#post-384246

I noticed the plants I bought couple of weeks ago, had a symbol on the label and had to ask what it meant. It meant plants were gown immersed, thus were fine for planting in water straight away. Shop didn't know anything about "other" non immersed plants as they didn't sell them. Anyway after planting in my tank, they are off....no sign of melt or algae either. If I remember I will photograph the labels & symbol.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the suggestions so far......@Ian I was only using 2 of the 4 tubes, so thats 160 Watts, only when i saw the plants dying off i put on the 4 to see if would get pearling or something, but no joy.....plants never pearled with 2 or 4 bulbs on.
 
curefan said:
plants never pearled with 2 or 4 bulbs on.
Click to expand...
Sound like CO2 issue (or too much flow). My plants stop pearling when CO2 runs out or is not distributed correctly or I have my power head on and pointing directly on the plants.
 
Commiserations
You might chat with Tropica (or whomever has been your plant grower) - there's always the possibility of insight.

I'd try getting some "easy" plants growing well, then gradually switch over to your focus group.
Keep things simple to start & just use a commercial aquatic fertilizer such as Tropica.

One CO2 tank is fine, you can split after the regulator (either get a proper manifold or just DIY for now) & place multiple diffusers through the tank - if I recall correctly, tank is 5' x 2' x 2 ' so likely the issue is distribution rather than filtration ... maybe post photos of the hardscape/plant plans etc.
You can also add some liquid carbon to the tank to increase carbon levels for plants without stressing your fish.

If the lamps are getting on in age, I'd be inclined to replace them (the spectra does degrade, whether plants care may be debateable but my perception cares 😉 )
If I'm looking at the correct fixture, light is 23cm wide on a 60cm wide tank so look at the light distribution & PAR distribution at 60+ cm - note that some manufactures have those very nice PAR sketches done in air rather than water (lighting should be fine but details are nice).

Just out of interest, what fish are in the tank?
 
josepinto said:
Whats your kh, gh?
Click to expand...

I find those GH/KH kits difficult to use as its hard to see exactly when the colours change (maybe because they are old test kits). But what i got was a KH of 8 (German degrees) and GH of 14, but can't be sure of accuracy??
 
hey there, the simple answer is that the bigger the tank the tougher the challenge to get good distribution of co2, especially at substrate level.

You should immediately go back to 2 tubes and play around with the distribution while increasing the injection rate of co2. Run a ph profile to see if you are getting in the right region. Once you have done that forget anything else that you might consider an issue and listen to your plants. Melt is a co2/light balance issue.

When you made the decision to turn on the other 2 lamps you increased the issue, damaged the plants further and set them back. Even after you get distribution right it could take the plants a week or so to show small signs of life so a certain amount of patience is needed. Try to resist the urge to continually fiddle or you may get it right then change it without even knowing.
For a tank that size you will need a lot of gas!

Small methodical changes are the order of the day focusing on co2 only :thumbup:
 
curefan said:
I find those GH/KH kits difficult to use as its hard to see exactly when the colours change (maybe because they are old test kits). But what i got was a KH of 8 (German degrees) and GH of 14, but can't be sure of accuracy??
Click to expand...
Contact your local water board & request a print out of the water profiles (quality guide values etc Dublin example 😉) - this is always a good starting base.
 
Funny you should mention that, I've had very little success with plants in jelly. While everyone's been having great success, mine just melts away or grows very slowly. They're not from established nurseries like Tropica or Anubias. The latest issue of TFH has an article on these plants. Apparently since they're grown in complete isolation, they may not be as resilient to different water parameters or alelopathic chemicals from other plants. Though it'd be really hard to prove that.

Sorry I'm not helping, just chiming in.
 
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