Substrate Advice Needed - Established Tank

[dw1305]

Hi all,
What @LFNfan says,

Flourish and beneficial bacteria are not going to provide what's needed to feed your plants properly (macro nutrients N, P, K and micro nutrients like Fe) and with your water so pure the plants are just about surviving on fumes (fish pee).

but I'll still post this.

and I’ve tried adding “beneficial bacteria” but it doesn’t seem to change my readings much!

If they worked (and that is very much open to question <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">) they would provide ammonia oxidising bacteria (AOB) that convert TAN ammonia / ammonium (NH3 / NH4+) to nitrite (NO2-) and nitrite oxidising bacteria (NOB) that convert NO2- to nitrate (NO3-). They don't create any <"new fixed nitrogen">, they just change it from one form to another.

You can think about it like money, nitrifying bacteria change ten individual pound coins into a £10 pound note, but it is still £10 and you need to add some more money, if that makes sense?

cheers Darrel

 

[LFNfan]

Not sure if you have seen a picture like this.
The idea is that plants need a whole range of mineral nutrients (plus light and water) to grow. They can only grow as much as the least available nutrient.
Your plants will be getting Nitrogen from the fish pee (basically) but most of the rest of the nutrients / minerals will be really low or not present in your water (represented by the barrel planks in the picture being shorter than others).

(good) Complete fertilisers contain all of the right minerals in the right ratios.

 

[MummyW]

Hi all,
What @LFNfan says,

but I'll still post this.

If they worked (and that is very much open to question <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">) they would provide ammonia oxidising bacteria that convert TAN ammonia / ammonium (NH3 / NH4+) to nitrite (NO2-) and nitrite oxidising bacteria that convert NO2- to nitrate (NO3-).

They don't create any <"new fixed nitrogen"> they just change it from one form to another. You can think about it like money, they change ten pound coins into a £10 pound note, but it is still £10, you need to add some more money, if that makes sense?

cheers Darrel

Yes it does! I think I have to accept the fact that I am really in over my head here 😩

 

[MummyW]

Not sure if you have seen a picture like this.
The idea is that plants need a whole range of mineral nutrients (plus light and water) to grow. They can only grow as much as the least available nutrient.
Your plants will be getting Nitrogen from the fish pee (basically) but most of the rest of the nutrients / minerals will be really low or not present in your water (represented by the barrel planks in the picture being shorter than others).

(good) Complete fertilisers contain all of the right minerals in the right ratios.

I like this, I think the fact there’s a picture makes it much easier to digest! Now I just need to work on getting the right things in the tank 🫣

 

[AlecF]

While The Southerners are jealous of our water, it's true that low tech (without CO2) it isn't always the easiest to grow plants in as a beginner. Jamie and the rest of Team Edinburgh will give you the basics we all use. Personally I'm no good at all the measuring of 00000.2 of a gram, so I just add things using common sense, using a shop brought complete, and adding in some other things that I learn about here. It really does get easier and people are always helpful and patient on this site.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

While The Southerners are jealous of our water, it's true that low tech (without CO2) it isn't always the easiest to grow plants in as a beginner. Jamie and the rest of Team Edinburgh will give you the basics we all use. Personally I'm no good at all the measuring of 00000.2 of a gram, so I just add things using common sense, using a shop brought complete, and adding in some other things that I learn about here. It really does get easier and people are always helpful and patient on this site.

@MummyW My tap water is the same as yours. It’s approximately 35ppm straight from the tap and has a hardness of about 1dGH. The fertilisers I’m bringing you on Saturday will sort out the lack of nutrients for your plants. I will also make up some minerals you can use to boost the hardness of the water which will make your livebearers and any snails or shrimp you may want to get much healthier and happier.

I’ll premix it all for you and show you how to use it. As @AlecF says, measuring minuscule amounts of salts is time consuming and for many, a distraction from enjoying our hobby. I’m sure we can get the tank back on track this weekend. 👍🏻

@X3NiTH is part of “Team Edinburgh” (should we get t-shirts?! 😄) and he knows more about fertiliser than you could possibly imagine. Once we get your basics sorted out and get some plants growing, if you decide to go deeper into the hobby, he’s your man for advanced knowledge.

EDIT: The above photo shows my tap water. I use just a cheap TDS meter but I calibrated it in the lab at work and it’s reasonably accurate for our purposes.

 

[MummyW]

@MummyW My tap water is the same as yours. It’s approximately 35ppm straight from the tap and has a hardness of about 1dGH. The fertilisers I’m bringing you on Saturday will sort out the lack of nutrients for your plants. I will also make up some minerals you can use to boost the hardness of the water which will make your livebearers and any snails or shrimp you may want to get much healthier and happier.

I’ll premix it all for you and show you how to use it. As @AlecF says, measuring minuscule amounts of salts is time consuming and for many, a distraction from enjoying our hobby. I’m sure we can get the tank back on track this weekend. 👍🏻

@X3NiTH is part of “Team Edinburgh” (should we get t-shirts?! 😄) and he knows more about fertiliser than you could possibly imagine. Once we get your basics sorted out and get some plants growing, if you decide to go deeper into the hobby, he’s your man for advanced knowledge.

View attachment 217041
EDIT: The above photo shows my tap water. I use just a cheap TDS meter but I calibrated it in the lab at work and it’s reasonably accurate for our purposes.

Thank you all so much, I’m looking forward to learning more! Team Edinburgh T-shirts sounds like a plan, but I think mine would have to say “apprentice” 🤣 I have another two tanks running but they only have plastic plants, the kids have them in their rooms and I’d eventually like to get them all to live plants but for the time being I just want to get mine thriving!

It’s all very exciting, and I love seeing my little fish swim about doing their thing, can’t wait to make it better for them 😍

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

As @AlecF says, measuring minuscule amounts of salts is time consuming and for many, a distraction from enjoying our hobby.

You don't really need to measure small amounts, you can just <"guestimate">.

cheers Darrel

 

[jamiep]

I'll PM you to drop these cuttings round to you in next few days. This tub is 60cm long so I'm hoping you'll have enough for the kids' tank too

 

[MummyW]

I'll PM you to drop these cuttings round to you in next few days. This tub is 60cm long so I'm hoping you'll have enough for the kids' tank too View attachment 217047

Thank you so much ☺️

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I'll PM you to drop these cuttings round to you in next few days. This tub is 60cm long so I'm hoping you'll have enough for the kids' tank too View attachment 217047

If you have any spare of the stems (from the Hygrophila down) I would love to help you recycle some cuttings also. I’ll be starting a shrimp tank in the near future so some fast stems would be ideal. 👍🏻

 

[bazz]

I have another two tanks running but they only have plastic plants

EEK!

I'll PM you to drop these cuttings round to you in next few days. This tub is 60cm long so I'm hoping you'll have enough for the kids' tank too

Phew!

 

[LFNfan]

My vote would be to get one planted tank running on rails before branching out to three! 😅

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I have given @MummyW the three premixed bottles in the photo. She has added Fluval Stratum to the substrate and has a decent stocking level of fish so have mixed up solutions targeting 3ppm N, 1.5ppm P, 6ppm K. I’ve also mixed up a solution of trace that targets 0.2ppm Fe. There isn’t co2 injection and the depth of the tank makes this low energy so felt these numbers are a good starting point.

I’ve also given her a 2000dGH stock solution of CaCl and Epsom Salt (3:1 ratio) to boost water hardness but she may need some advice on diluting this correctly at the next water change.

Also dropped off some floating plants.

Hopefully we can help get the tank flourishing. 👍🏻

 

[MummyW]

View attachment 217117

I have given @MummyW the three premixed bottles in the photo. She has added Fluval Stratum to the substrate and has a decent stocking level of fish so have mixed up solutions targeting 3ppm N, 1.5ppm P, 6ppm K. I’ve also mixed up a solution of trace that targets 0.2ppm Fe. There isn’t co2 injection and the depth of the tank makes this low energy so felt these numbers are a good starting point.

I’ve also given her a 2000dGH stock solution of CaCl and Epsom Salt (3:1 ratio) to boost water hardness but she may need some advice on diluting this correctly at the next water change.

Also dropped off some floating plants.

Hopefully we can help get the tank flourishing. 👍🏻

@simon_the_plant_nerd and @jamiepearson thank you both so much! I really do appreciate the help! Tank is looking a lot better already just by adding the plants from yesterday, I’m looking forward to share my plants with people because they’ve grown out of control haha!

 

[LFNfan]

My goodness! Looks like a whole different tank! Great job

 

[X3NiTH]

I’ve also given her a 2000dGH stock solution of CaCl and Epsom Salt (3:1 ratio) to boost water hardness but she may need some advice on diluting this correctly at the next water change.

There isn’t a ratio of 3:1 ions dissolved in the stock solution as it is colloidal and Calcium Sulphate has precipitated out.

Adding a Sulphate compound to a solution of Calcium Chloride or vice versa will result in Calcium Sulphate precipitating out of solution when the solubility for Calcium Sulphate in solution is exceeded.

Use the Chlorides of Calcium and Magnesium together for a concentrate stock remineralising solution which won’t precipitate a less soluble compound, as long as the stock solution doesn’t exceed the solubility for the Chlorides of Ca and Mg then all the ions will go into solution and will be way more accurate when dosed to reach a target.

For our super soft water it’s easier to dry dose the powdered Carbonates of Calcium and Magnesium into the tank for hardening the water for livebearers after a water change if you have an inert non carbonaceous substrate. It’s what I do.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

There isn’t a ratio of 3:1 ions dissolved in the stock solution as it is colloidal and Calcium Sulphate has precipitated out.

Adding a Sulphate compound to a solution of Calcium Chloride or vice versa will result in Calcium Sulphate precipitating out of solution when the solubility for Calcium Sulphate in solution is exceeded.

Use the Chlorides of Calcium and Magnesium together for a concentrate stock remineralising solution which won’t precipitate a less soluble compound, as long as the stock solution doesn’t exceed the solubility for the Chlorides of Ca and Mg then all the ions will go into solution and will be way more accurate when dosed to reach a target.

For our super soft water it’s easier to dry dose the powdered Carbonates of Calcium and Magnesium into the tank for hardening the water for livebearers after a water change if you have an inert non carbonaceous substrate. It’s what I do.

This is why I’m an engineer and not a chemist.

So basically I’ve made a solution of poorly soluble calcium sulphate and dissolved magnesium chloride? Some of the calcium chloride must have stayed in solution though as there’s more of it. So it’s actually a ratio something like:

2 parts CaCl2 : 1 part CaSO4 (insoluble) : 1 part MgCl2

Assuming the limits of solubility were not reached. Am I correct?

 

[LMuhlen]

I think it can still be used, it just needs to be vigorously shaked and mixed before dosing, so that the concentration in the sample used is the same as was intended, regardless of the salts being in solution or not. When added to the much more diluted aquarium water, the precipitates will dissolve anyways.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

When added to the much more diluted aquarium water, the precipitates will dissolve anyways.

That one for me, but I have a fairly ad hoc. <"approach to water chemistry">.

I use our tap water (and add a sprinkle of "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O)) <"as a remineraliser">, should I need one. If I didn't have hard tap water? I would still add a sprinkle of Epsom Salts, but I'd add a pinch of <"Oyster shell Chick Grit"> as well. It <"doesn't seem very scientific">, but it gets the job done.

For our super soft water it’s easier to dry dose the powdered Carbonates of Calcium and Magnesium into the tank for hardening the water for livebearers after a water change if you have an inert non carbonaceous substrate. It’s what I do.

It is, honestly, the most sensible way to dose them.

So it’s actually a ratio something like:
2 parts CaCl2 : 1 part CaSO4 (insoluble) : 1 part MgCl2
Assuming the limits of solubility were not reached. Am I correct?

Theoretically you could, you would need to find the solubility of each potential compound (at 25oC), and then the least soluble compound will precipitate out first, followed by the next etc, via the <"common ion effect">.

Because the hydrated form of CaSO4.2H2O "gypsum" is <"very sparingly soluble">

0.26 g/100ml at 25 °C (dihydrate)

You are going to precipitate out of a lot of calcium (Ca++) and sulphate (SO4--) ions and <"not have a lot left in solution">. You would still have the magnesium (Mg++) and chloride ions (2 Cl-) in solution, because magnesium sulphate is soluble and <"so are all chloride compounds">*.

*I'm <"ignoring silver chloride (AgCl)">.

cheers Darrel