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Glutaradehyde

Soilwork

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22 Nov 2015
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Not sure if this has previously been discussed but what are your thoughts on the concept that glutaradehyde reduces the thickness of leaf surface Periphyton allowing better gas transfer in to the leaf?

Thus glutaradehyde just increases co2 uptake rather than actually provides a source of carbon.

Does it do both?

Regards

CJ


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In a nutshell and also in an attempt to save me from reading the whole thread, what specifically should be remembered from the information contained within?

Cheers
CJ
Its dangerous and can cause heath issues in undiluted form if inhaled.

Its old. But being honest. Thats all i remember. Would need to read it all again to jig2 memory

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OK thanks for the info but that's kind of not what the question was about :)

I was looking to hear what people thought about the supposed function of glutaradehyde in terms of increased plant growth.

Cheers

CJ
 
Thus glutaradehyde just increases co2 uptake rather than actually provides a source of carbon.

Neither.. :) If water in natural equilibrium only contains 4mg/l of CO² than that's all it has.. Glut doesn't add extra CO² and it doesn't increase CO² uptake. Even if it would, what the water doesn't contain can't be taken up.

Why this stuff increases plantgrowth is actualy a little mystery even scientists don't realy fully understand. There is a thread somewhere here at UKAPS from a member very knowedgable in biochemistry going into the issue. I'm very bad at bookmarking things, so i lost track of it. But i'm also not knowledgable enough to understand it anyway. But the plant internaly converts CO² into other molecules and glut helps the plant to create this building block via other routes. It's biochemistry to the max and as said it seems, so likely it's also just a theory.. There is no real definitive answer to find on the net, some say they know but are by contract not liberated to speak about it.

But for us hobbyists, who cares it works, what more do you need to know??

Well as algicide it works because it's a disinfectand killing organic cell walls, algae are single cell organisme and thus their cell wall gets destroyed beyong repair. True aquatic plants also have a more vurnerable softer cell structure than bog plants and also their cell structure can be weakend by gluts disinfectant proppertie and die. The non true aquatic aquarium plants, thus bog plants which are originaly terrestrial have a much more complex and stronger cell structure and are not affected negatively, but actualy positively if grown submersed. The why remains a question.

Further it is also used in the medical area as disinfectand and has a hazard code as a toxic chemical. The use in aquarium in relative very small dosage is somewhat controversial.. It is not known nor yet prooven if it has negative long term effect on other aquatic life. But if it kills algae it obviously also kills other beneficial single cell micro organisme.. Maybe not to an extend of fatality, but it does.. In any way you should be very carefull with this stuff, eye contact can cause immediate damage.

For the rest it's a moral issue, if you think like "What we don't now wont hurt" than happily enjoy it till prooven otherwise. Or think like many others do, it's a toxic chemical rather do not because we don't know.. There are other prooven safer ways to achieve the same. All tho adding extra CO² also becommes controversial because in some sientific studies it is under suspicion to cause a kidney disease in fish.

Hallelujah Amen....
 
Neither.. :) If water in natural equilibrium only contains 4mg/l of CO² than that's all it has.. Glut doesn't add extra CO² and it doesn't increase CO² uptake. Even if it would, what the water doesn't contain can't be taken up.

So it cannot increase the uptake efficiency of whatever the amount of co2 is in the water? Why not?

Why this stuff increases plantgrowth is actualy a little mystery even scientists don't realy fully understand. There is a thread somewhere here at UKAPS from a member very knowedgable in biochemistry going into the issue. I'm very bad at bookmarking things, so i lost track of it. But i'm also not knowledgable enough to understand it anyway. But the plant internaly converts CO² into other molecules and glut helps the plant to create this building block via other routes. It's biochemistry to the max and as said it seems, so likely it's also just a theory.. There is no real definitive answer to find on the net, some say they know but are by contract not liberated to speak about it.

I do find it hard to believe that modern day scientists can’t figure this one out. Perhaps there is little work done on this.

But for us hobbyists, who cares it works, what more do you need to know??

Just out of interest really. I don’t work on the premise if it works who cares. I like to know how things work

Well as algicide it works because it's a disinfectand killing organic cell walls, algae are single cell organisme and thus their cell wall gets destroyed beyong repair. True aquatic plants also have a more vurnerable softer cell structure than bog plants and also their cell structure can be weakend by gluts disinfectant proppertie and die. The non true aquatic aquarium plants, thus bog plants which are originaly terrestrial have a much more complex and stronger cell structure and are not affected negatively, but actualy positively if grown submersed. The why remains a question.

This bit I already know :)

Further it is also used in the medical area as disinfectand and has a hazard code as a toxic chemical. The use in aquarium in relative very small dosage is somewhat controversial.. It is not known nor yet prooven if it has negative long term effect on other aquatic life. But if it kills algae it obviously also kills other beneficial single cell micro organisme.. Maybe not to an extend of fatality, but it does.. In any way you should be very carefull with this stuff, eye contact can cause immediate damage.

I know this too ;)

For the rest it's a moral issue, if you think like "What we don't now wont hurt" than happily enjoy it till prooven otherwise. Or think like many others do, it's a toxic chemical rather do not because we don't know.. There are other prooven safer ways to achieve the same. All tho adding extra CO² also becommes controversial because in some sientific studies it is under suspicion to cause a kidney disease in fish.

Hallelujah Amen....

Thanks. I was literally just interested in the mechanism of how this stuff works or even some hypothesis. Just to incite a bit of discussion that’s all.
 
Gluteradehyde is similar to one of the photosynthetic intermediate products a plant produces in converting CO2 to carbohydrate. So the plant just uses the gluteraldehyde instead rather than starting from CO2. The differences of between the various types of liquid carbon is some are polymerised or compounds of gluteraldehyde that are possibly safer to handle and can last longer in the water before decomposing.

Lots and lots of research has been done on using gluteraldhyde (and compounds) to provide carbon source for use in increasing crop growth rates and yields, especially in hydroponics. Issues here is cost and workers handling it. Cheaper safer ways to get carbon in are available.
 
So it cannot increase the uptake efficiency of whatever the amount of co2 is in the water? Why not?

If you do not add co2 forcefully than water has a natural equilibrium in how much co2 it can take up. And this is rather low, this can still vary depending on the kH and pH the water has, but that never aint very much.. Suppose it's kH 10 and pH 7.8 (that's my low energy tank) that makes about 4,5 mg/l co2 and this is at the beginning of the light cycle, so the plants start taking up from this amount and the pH changes within 2 hours to pH8.3 which is about 1,5 mg/l co2 and it stays like this till the lights go out. And this is following the co2 chart, this one is also not 100% correct but a very near estimate.

Since glut doesn't add co2 to the water it doesn't change things regarding this so there is non extra to give. So it can not increase uptake from what is not not added nor present.. The name Liquid Carbon it carries is actualy an aquarium trade marketing yell, to make yu buy it, creating a lot of confusement.

As ian_m describes
a plant produces in converting CO2 to carbohydrate. So the plant just uses the gluteraldehyde instead rather than starting from CO2.

So the plant is fooled and likely thinks glut is co2 and obviously uses this instead. And as said there is a thread roaming the forum where somebody tried to explain the chemical process behind it.. But is was to complex for me to suck in and remember. Unfortunately i didn't bookmark it.. I'm not sure but i have a faint memory it might have been @Manuel Arias who explained it or maybe @ceg4048 . :)
 
Anther problem is you can't increase gluteradehyde levels to match CO2 levels from CO2 injection, as the level of gluteraldehyde required will kill the fish and damage the plants. So CO2 injection will always give much more carbon to the plants than any fish and plant safe level of gluteraldehyde.
 
Will it help break down the chelators in the Micros? FE etc.
Just going by on Excel bottle it says Make iron more readily available to the plants.
 
Thanks all. Again, literally just interested in the mechanism. Not it’s toxicity nor it’s effectivness in comparison to co2 nor how safe it is or cost effective it is to use something else

@Daveslaney i did wonder about this myself. Apparently they use glut in combination with Chitosan to remove heavy metals form water.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....d_heavy_metal_ions_from_aqueous_solutions/amp

@zozo think of it like this (pure hypothesis) if the level of co2 already in the water is 4ppm and you try to catch the molecules with a small net but then you are given a larger net you can collect more molecules. I was thinking that the Periphyton layer acts as a small net and the glut takes away some of this layer due to its destructive nature towards simple organisms which improves gas exchange at the leaf hence a larger net (increased efficiency) not necessarily that the glut ‘adds’ co2.

@ian_m thanks for the explanation.

Regards
CJ
 
Er no..more like 0.6ppm.

See here about Henry's law to get dissolved carbon dioxide in water.
http://butane.chem.uiuc.edu/pshapley/GenChem1/L23/web-L23.pdf

See here for Darrels calculation.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/surface-agitation-affect-liquid-c02.37471/#post-404552

Sure, i'm aware, sorry for the confusemt i meant a planted aquarium and not just a glass of water. In my example it's a planted tank, which provides a low ammount of co2 extra on it's own which gives me 4 ppm at the start of the light cycle. Should have pointed that out, to prevent Er's. Thanks..
 
@zozo think of it like this (pure hypothesis) if the level of co2 already in the water is 4ppm and you try to catch the molecules with a small net but then you are given a larger net you can collect more molecules. I was thinking that the Periphyton layer acts as a small net and the glut takes away some of this layer due to its destructive nature towards simple organisms which improves gas exchange at the leaf hence a larger net (increased efficiency) not necessarily that the glut ‘adds’ co2.

Than it would simply be measurable, put it to the test. :) Since a higher or more efficient co2 uptake results in depleting the water column from it this should result the pH reading going up. :)
 
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