Worrying about TB

[Nont]

Hi there,


I bought 20 zebra danios 2 months ago, all of them are fine in the first month. Then, a week ago, they started to show a symptoms including bent spine, sunken belly and doesn’t eat before losing 9 of them. I’m quite concerned about it being fish TB. What are you guys opinions?

 

[MirandaB]

With the symptoms they're presenting it's a distinct possibility but the only way to be certain is to have a histology done on one of the deceased fish but I'm guessing that's not really an option for you.
Have you treated them for internal parasites at all as that's one of the easiest things to rule out as a cause.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Have you treated them for internal parasites at all

Whenever I see a fish that looks like that, after you've had it for a month or two, I really worry about <"Camallanus infection">.

I’m quite concerned about it being fish TB.

It definitely could be, but internal parasites are probably more likely.

cheers Darrel

 

[Conort2]

Whenever I see a fish that looks like that, after you've had it for a month or two, I really worry about <"Camallanus infection">.

I can see why people would misdiagnose this with fish tb as it causes many similar symptoms. Sometimes they don’t even show themselves before killing their host so the fish keeper is none the wiser. Awful things but thankfully they can be removed. I’ve had these wipe out over half a tank before I knew what I was dealing with. Common symptoms were wasting, discoloured patches, dropsy. It wasn’t until they showed themselves on a fishes vent I knew they were there.

 

[Wookii]

Hi all,

Whenever I see a fish that looks like that, after you've had it for a month or two, I really worry about <"Camallanus infection">.

It definitely could be, but internal parasites are probably more likely.

cheers Darrel

I can see why people would misdiagnose this with fish tb as it causes many similar symptoms. Sometimes they don’t even show themselves before killing their host so the fish keeper is none the wiser. Awful things but thankfully they can be removed. I’ve had these wipe out over half a tank before I knew what I was dealing with. Common symptoms were wasting, discoloured patches, dropsy. It wasn’t until they showed themselves on a fishes vent I knew they were there.

Is is possible to pre-treat fish for this during quarantine with a general anti-worm/anti-parasite treatment?

 

[Conort2]

Is is possible to pre-treat fish for this during quarantine with a general anti-worm/anti-parasite treatment?

Yes, Esha ndx gets rid of it.

I’d recommend to worm fish in quarantine. One of the few treatments I’d recommend to use as a preventative measure.

Cheers

 

[Wookii]

Yes, Esha ndx gets rid of it.

I’d recommend to worm fish in quarantine. One of the few treatments I’d recommend to use as a preventative measure.

Cheers

Thanks Conor, @MirandaB also recommended Esha NDX as a quarantine treatment, along with Manaus Aquariums Octocil for intestinal flagellates. I can't find the latter product for sale, but Sera Med Professional Flagellol seems an alternative with the same active ingredient. Should any other preventative medications be applied during quarantine, or will that cover most bases?

 

[castle]

Thanks Conor, @MirandaB also recommended Esha NDX as a quarantine treatment, along with Manaus Aquariums Octocil for intestinal flagellates. I can't find the latter product for sale, but Sera Med Professional Flagellol seems an alternative with the same active ingredient. Should any other preventative medications be applied during quarantine, or will that cover most bases?

Covers the main ones, but really quarantine should been seen as a filter. Most fish diseases we can’t (easily) stop, so by quarantining fish we’re hoping anything nasty gets them within the quarantine period. A bonus is to get rid of any parasites that might be there.

deworming is about as good as we can get imo.

However, diseased fish are increasingly less common - from my experience. But I guess that doesn’t account for the millions of fish sold every year that die 8 weeks later where the owner just assumes it was their fault, or the water was bad etc.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

during quarantine with a general anti-worm/anti-parasite treatment?

Certain fish (Dwarf Cichlids and Live-bearers for example) are very likely to have Camallanus infections.

My understanding is that these are often Flubendazole resistant and it tends to take some time before symptoms appear. Again, purely anecdotally, SE Asian produced fish are most likely to carry Camallanus, but it is also present in Czech farmed fish.

There is also some suggestion that Levamisole HCl resistance has also occurred, but Levamisole would still be <"my weapon of choice">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Conort2]

However, diseased fish are increasingly less common - from my experience.

Most fish I keep are wild caught and believe it or not I seem to have less problems with them compared to tank bred. Don’t get me wrong parasites are certainly a thing with wild caught fish but apart from that they appear to be more robust. I wouldn’t go near tank bred neons, livebearers, dwarf gourami etc. I always go for wild caught cardinals over tank bred if I can too.

Cheers

 

[Nont]

Thanks for replying, guys.

I moved all of them out to the quarantine box

Have you treated them for internal parasites at all as that's one of the easiest things to rule out as a cause.

Yes, I have treated them with Metronidazole and Flubendazole, unfortunately it didn’t do anything.
And sadly I can’t find Levamisole or Esha med here.

It wasn’t until they showed themselves on a fishes vent I knew they were there.

Just checked as soon as saw this sentence. It seems like they have red vent and anal fin. Does this mean we can be 100% sure that it isn’t TB and is parasite?

 

[castle]

@Conort2 It’s hard to say whether farmed or wild are tougher, I used to think wild caught fish were tougher but I’m not so sure now. i guess this is more about which fish get less stressed in our tap water. I think picking fish is a bit like playing bingo.

If you import a hundred wild cardinals (assuming neon tetra) and don’t get an outbreak of white spot, I’d see that as a sign to do a lottery ticket too.

 

[Conort2]

Just checked as soon as saw this sentence. It seems like they have red vent and anal fin. Does this mean we can be 100% sure that it isn’t TB and is parasite?

Redness or red spikes? Red spikes protruding mean worms.

It’s hard to say whether farmed or wild are tougher, I used to think wild caught fish were tougher but I’m not so sure now.

to be fair it’s probably a lot to do with how the fish are handled after being caught as well. The same with tank bred fish. They all have to go on quite a journey before they make it into our tanks.

Cheers

 

[Nont]

Redness or red spikes? Red spikes protruding mean worms.

Redness

 

[JeffK]

Camallanus can sometimes be seen from their, erm, poophole. It's tricky to get rid off and often treatment comes too late with the fish already too damaged.

Strangely enough, only my Congochromis seem to be struggling with it.

I'm not sure if you're able to buy this, but I bought Levamicil to battle it.

 

[Nont]

Update: loss 1 otos and 8 more zebra danios today. Most of them have same symptom I described above however oto and a few zebra danios have bloated bellies. Edit: Just noticed, some also have white bump.

At the moment I’m currently doing 50% water changes daily and treat them with parasite med I could get my hands on.

 

[Simon Cole]

I personally do 3-4 doses of praziquantel, 2 doses of levamisole and I also feed them metronidazole medicated foods for 2-3 weeks. Since doing this I've had no outbreaks of flukes or worms, and I've not seen many cases of internal parasites (although one of my dwarf rams currently has them... I don't think he ate much of the medicated food in quarantine). These medications are all quite easy on the fish and so I've never encountered any that don't tolerate it.

^ One of Ed's posts that I made sure to bookmark.

 

[MirandaB]

Sorry to hear that @Nont...my feeling is it's not Camallanus as it's killing so many so quickly.
Not sure if you'd feel up to doing it but if you had some rubber gloves and a scalpel I'd be tempted to open up one of the dead fish to see if it is Camallanus worms as they should be very obvious to see.

 

[Nont]

Not sure if you'd feel up to doing it but if you had some rubber gloves and a scalpel I'd be tempted to open up one of the dead fish to see if it is Camallanus worms as they should be very obvious to see.

Just done it and I found no signs of worms.

I’m going to call fish vet tomorrow and posting more updates here.

 

[xZaiox]

Hi all,
I concur on the internal parasite diagnosis. I would absolutely assume this is parasitic in nature - fish TB tends to be a longer-term illness. Bent spines can indeed be a part of fish TB, but this happening over the course of a month is very quick. Have you noticed any white/clear poop? Typically it's seen with various parasitic infections.

I have treated them with Metronidazole and Flubendazole

Did you put the Metronidazole in the water, or feed it to the fish? I find Metronidazole is an incredibly effective medication for various internal parasitic infections, but it's best mixed in with the food, and with some sort of binder being used such as Seachem's 'Focus', or agar agar, or some type of gelatin product. This is to 'hold' the medication so that it's actually delivered to the fish, and not lost to the water column. It's also important to watch the fish feed, and ensure that they're actually eating it and not ignoring or spitting out the food.

Camallanus worms can often be physically identified on the fish (you can google this for images). As the worms mature, the females will hang out of the fish in order to release eggs into the water column. If this is physically seen, then it means that the infection is far progressed.

In a case like this with an unknown infection that is rapidly killing, I would personally employ a multi-pronged approach. Levamisole is a drug that will treat Camallanus and Capillaria, and it's usually only dosed for 24 hours followed by a water change. Praziquantel will treat tapeworms. Metronidazole will treat Hexamita. If none of these work, then I find Fenbendazole can treat a wide range of resistant parasitic infections.

Best of luck! Hope this helps