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What's happening to my M Kubotai...?

I always experienced the excact same and change straight from the tap. Winter times i change with a slightly less inflow speed to avoid a to heavy temperature swing. But viewing the fishes behaivor, this never changes. They always come towards the fresh water stream no matter the temp summer or winter. Play in it, chasing bubbles.. No idea what draws them, curiousity? The extra oxygen? Maybe they just like a cold shower once in a while.. I don't know, but it certainly doesn't bother them.

very hard to soft can also effect osmotic pressure and increase stress
I'm not so sure, also this can easily occur in nature.. There are very calcerious streams and pools, these are all almost all the lower point rainwater collectors. Rainwater is RO water, if not even softer. On floodseasons where massive amounts of rainwater flows into these excisting waterbodies, water levels rise meters within minutes, this must cause enormous fluctuations in hardness etc.. And this keeps occuring from time to time for the entire periode the fish evolved to live there.. Makes it very hard to believe for me that it aint addapted to that by now. Same as we are addapted to live in the atmosphere, we also do not drop dead or get sick immediately with ever change and we also go through a lot of them chances also within minutes sometimes.
 
I'm not so sure, also this can easily occur in nature.. There are very calcerious streams and pools, these are all almost all the lower point rainwater collectors. Rainwater is RO water, if not even softer. On floodseasons where massive amounts of rainwater flows into these excisting waterbodies, water levels rise meters within minutes, this must cause enormous fluctuations in hardness etc.. And this keeps occuring from time to time for the entire periode the fish evolved to live there.. Makes it very hard to believe for me that it aint addapted to that by now. Same as we are addapted to live in the atmosphere, we also do not drop dead or get sick immediately with ever change and we also go through a lot of them chances also within minutes sometimes.

I see your point... although altitude sickness is a change in atmosphere that effects humans and changing gradually helps prevent it ;) I think there are some changes that are too big to cope with suddenly, it's just knowing exactly what they are for individual fish species.

It would be really interesting if there was more specific details available about the natural water conditions for different fish and how they changed over seasons. It might be some fish cope fine with that because they've adapted for it and others that don't experience it naturally aren't. Or that the stress of that sudden change in the wild is manageable because they aren't dealing with others at the same time (being shipping to shop, caught again, car journey, etc.).

The fish I purchased at the weekend had a TDS of 960 where as my tank in remineralised RO is about 200 - I think even rainfall wise that might be quite a sudden change. I like to acclimatise slowly as that's a stress I can mitigate. I top up existing fish with straight unheated RO though as I think that's a mimic for rainfall and not a big enough change to cause stress - in fact as it's used as a trigger for spawning in some species I'd say they even like it.
 
It would be really interesting if there was more specific details available about the natural water conditions for different fish and how they changed over seasons.

This is not the first time this subject is disussed here at UKAPS.. There are topics to find, also where members have posted scientific papers on past field researches in the tropics. And you would be surpriced about the changes in parameters occuring through the day, measured in the same water from dawn till dusk. If we would measure these swings in our tanks we would be horrified beyond imagination. I remember reading pH swings from 4 to 9 with in half a day. I believe it was member "MarcelG" linking to these papers he did some professional field an lab studies on these kinda subjects. He also had his own website about it, but it's deleted at some time in the past. Also haven't seen him arround a long time and changed his account name, he's no longer listed with his former name. I have no idea what happened. But i guess the topics definitively should still be around. :) Sorry i'm terrible at bookmarking.
 
Hi all,
My understanding is that going from very hard to soft can also effect osmotic pressure and increase stress. I would also guess it depends on the fish, some are just more sensitive than others which would influence the success rate.
Yes I think that is right, I also think there might be more of a problem in the USA where their LFS tend to add salt to the water.
This links to a very good water quality article <"Water Chemistry: Osmoregulation, Ionic Imbalance & pH"> by Joe Gargas.
I would have a different definition of no problems - I don't expect any to die!
I would agree 100% with that.
That's why for me it's always fish first, plants second.
Same for me.

cheers Darrel
 
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Today it is hard to find serious retailers which have quarantine tanks and do not just bulk and push. Or how do you say something like that in english.. All LFS near my place are all about big branche wall marts with an aquarium section.. And actualy get about all the fish from the same wholesale importer. Go straight into the display tank and are sold.. I've seen, because i know the delivery day and time. They also get the life food from them and always go on that day to buy it as fresh as possible.. It's like the wholesaler and the retailer don't give a flying figure, abnormal fish are not screened they are pushed through like nothing is wrong. It's big bussines and an answer to high demand.

And indeed 1,5 years ago i bought 5 good looking healthy Kobutai's it were the last they had that day.. All 5 are still healthy and living today.. Since then i wanted a few more, but never found a healthy batch again till today. Till now every time i saw them the majority has this flat/concave deformed belly and i know from that wholesaler it is wildcatch.. Still waiting not buying them till i see a complete healthy batch again.

One day i said to the shop clerck, "Look at these Kobutai's man!! These are all sick".. He smiled and said "Why because they all look green?" He didn't know, he didn't see and thought i was joking.. :rolleyes: Hopeless bunch..
Yeh and any good retailer would let you see the quarantine facility if asked ,at quiet times of buisness.A shop,sadly gone or moved I visited had as many quarantine tanks as shop display ones.Some fish on sale in other shops he didn’t have on sale as they never made it out of quarantine
 
They treat the wholeseller as quarantine.

[ranton]
And that's what they should be.. :) By Law!! When it comes to this and to make people (children) environmentaly aware what btw is momentary very fashionable, but fails big time. Anyway i plead for:

1 - controled regulated import - export, wholesalers need to contact a Vet to check on the animals.. He needs to sign a permit and health certificate before any animal is released on the market.
2 - Anybody who wants a Vivarium for keeping animals, needs to be 18 to do it, else with parents consent, needs a basic permit as well, to get this they need to attent to a class and take an exame. Under 18, parents need the permit. And not just 1 permit, no several, special aquariums, lets call them biotopes whatever or keeping special fish not fit for community tanks :) You simply need a special permit...

Teach people that it is not about what they want, instead that it is all about what the animal in question needs. And how to manage that.

Not living up to the rules is punishable by a bombardment with rotten Tomatos in a public place.. And Cauliflowers as well for the serious offenders.
For example serious offenders are LFS owners selling inaccurate test kits, bottlles, pills and powders to change water parameters to inexperienced little kids to experiment on the fish he sells them at the same time..

If this doesn't change and stays as is, no child will ever get invironmentaly aware, they will keep on maltreating and experimenting on aquarium fish etc... Which is the least respected and most severely maltreated PET in the entire world, like it is a meaningless toy without feelings.
[rantoff]
:)

That's realy what baffles me the most.. The LFS with 110 display tanks and 1 filter system.. Equals with all tanks have the excact same water, so the easy community fish have it as well as the rather difficult to keep Apistogramma and Discus they sell have it, very often for months. Than you buy one and suddenly it needs very special water? WTF is this? Should you buy this fish in the first place? It was in the same non suitable water as every other fish in the entire store for the last 3 months. Duh???
 
That's realy what baffles me the most.. The LFS with 110 display tanks and 1 filter system.. Equals with all tanks have the excact same water, so the easy community fish have it as well as the rather difficult to keep Apistogramma and Discus they sell have it, very often for months. Than you buy one and suddenly it needs very special water? WTF is this? Should you buy this fish in the first place? It was in the same non suitable water as every other fish in the entire store for the last 3 months. Duh???

What you don't see is how many dead/unwell looking ones are netted out before opening each morning, or during the day.
 
What you don't see is how many dead/unwell looking ones are netted out before opening each morning, or during the day.
And you expect non of them to die when you come home with a batch?? Interesting!?
 
Oh that really sounds like it... :( The difference is though that none of the other fish are affected, I thought columnaris would affect all the fish in the tank? The 4 "survivors" looked OK for a while, but started showing (different) symptoms later this week, more like velvet disease or maybe fungus (small whitish powder-like areas and some kind of shimmer in the fins). I have started eSHA 2000 and Exit treatment this morning, as suggested earlier in this thread, fingers crossed...They have remained active all the time so I hope they will make it.
 
It usually does affect the other fish in the tank but the others will probably have better immune systems than the Kubotai so they may not succumb or it may take longer depending on how virulent the Columnaris is.
Hopefully the eSHa combo will do the trick but if not then Waterlife Myxazin tends to work better on Columnaris but you'd need to do 2 courses at half dose with a 50% waterchange between if you have sensitive fish in the tank such as loaches.
 
That could be it, the other fish (other than the 4) seem very healthy, hope they will remain that way. Thank you for the tip for Myxazin. I did not find the product in my trusted webshops yet, will have to look further. But let's hope it won't be needed!
 
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