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Waterchanges & Photoperiod Question

shangman

shangman

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London
Hi all,

Hoped you guys could shed some light on an argument I've been having with my dad about waterchanges in my high tech tank.

In my lowtechs, I do waterchanges whenever, usually during the day when the lights are on and it's easy. That's what the family is used to.

I also have a 180L hightech, where the CO2 comes on at 11am, then the light at 1pm. The CO2 goes off at 7pm, and the light at 9pm (with a ramp down of an hour between 8-9 so it's quite dark). The light is a twinstar at 40% intensity maximum.
It is my understanding that I need to do waterchanges before the CO2 comes on at 11am, or after it's off at 7pm, so as no to disturb the plants growing cycle and create CO2 fluctuations. This is what I've been doing so far.

This morning, I wanted to use the kitchen for 40 minutes to do the hightech waterchange, when my dad said he was using it and so I couldn't. I said ok I will do it this evening after 7pm then, and then I'll make dinner after that (which means a late dinner). I need to do it today, because the family are around and it's a two person job as the tank is on a different floor to the tap & our new kitchen tap requires watching/adjusting when adding the water in. I do all the work, the other person just has to watch it fill so it doesn't overflow.

So then my dad got annoyed and asked why I can't just do waterchanges at any time and switch the CO2 and lights off. I said I think that this would cause CO2 fluctuations upsetting plants and encouraging algae (which I have been battling), and found <this thread on it> which seemed to confirm what I thought.

He thinks that that's rubbish and it would be fine to do during the day, and I'm just being obsessive for no reason, and that is too impractical. The argument on his side is that in gardening there are all sorts of obsessive rules people follow which he has found to be wrong (he is a trained horticulturalist and working gardener of 40 years), and that this sounds like more of that to him. I don't really know what to say to that so I was hoping some of you would have a clear perspective to show I'm not doing it for no reason. I think pretty much everything I've learnt about CO2 is that you shouldn't let it fluctuate by doing things like this, but I don't have one great source that shows this well that I can cite.

On the other hand, if it is unnecessary and he's right I don't mind, it would be useful to be able to do waterchanges at any time tbh.

What do you guys think?
 
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I do water change whenever is convenient. I used to try to do this before co2 and lights on but that was not practical due timings and having multiple tanks. I have not seen any adverse effects of doing water change during photoperiod. I think the plants get exposed to co2 during the waterchange from the air. Plus there is a lot of dissolved co2 in your tap supply anyway when you refill
 
Andy Pierce said:
I think your dad is right. :D
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He often is 😂 It's really annoying!

Although in this case it would be easier for me too for him to be right, doing them to this schedule atm is awkward.

Kevin Eades said:
I do water change whenever is convenient. I used to try to do this before co2 and lights on but that was not practical due timings and having multiple tanks. I have not seen any adverse effects of doing water change during photoperiod. I think the plants get exposed to co2 during the waterchange from the air. Plus there is a lot of dissolved co2 in your tap supply anyway when you refill
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That's super useful, thank you! I think I will try it today during anyway and see how it goes. It would be really nice to have the lights on during a waterchange for once to see what's going on lol.
 
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shangman said:
He often is 😂 It's really annoying!

Although I'm this case it would be easier for me too for him to be right, doing them to this schedule atm is annoying.


That's super useful, thank you! I think I will try it today during anyway and see how it goes. It would be really nice to have the lights on during a waterchange for once to see what's going on lol.
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Another reason I gave up before lights on changes was I would find I'd miss bits of cleaning so I needed the light on anyway
 
You Dad is just annoyed because his dinner is going to be late isn’t he? 😂

I personally don’t think it makes much difference to be honest. It might if you’re running a very high light tank on a knife edge, and the slightest deviation from routine brings it all crashing down, but for most tanks I don’t think it would be an issue.

You tap water contains a decent amount of dissolved CO2, so it shouldn’t significantly affect your CO2 levels adversely, and I have always found that plants seem to respond really well to a water change in general.
 
Not that it'll probably help but I've read the same as you many times and seen it advised as gospel but from personal experience of when I ran my high techs, I never had any noticeable problems if I did a wc when everything was on, even if I did try to be good. But then I use alot of natural light on my tank and most believe that will lead to lots of algae, which thankfully isn't the case.
 
Wookii said:
You Dad is just annoyed because his dinner is going to be late isn’t he? 😂
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Yes. 😂

But actually I'm very glad to have this discussion because I'm feeling much more relaxed about it all now. I've been racing against the clock in the morning doing it as fast as possible after everyone has stopped using the kitchen so this is a much more relaxed way to do things!

One of the hardest bits of this hobby is working out what's an actual problem/requirement and what isn't.

John q said:
If you can,... do the water change outside the photoperiod.. if you can't, and it averts family arguments... the plants will forgive, dad won't. 😀
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If it was convincing that the strict water changes + times were a necessity it would be fine, he was just convinced that it wasn't so why bother stressing lol. Seems like he was right!

When I was a kid we kept A LOT of tropical pets from insects & arachnids to amphibians and reptiles, so he gets that the maintenance and everything is important.

mort said:
But then I use alot of natural light on my tank and most believe that will lead to lots of algae, which thankfully isn't the case.
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Do you have any photographs of your tanks with natural light? I'm really interested by the natural light because it's used so rarely but seems like actually a great thing to do!
 
shangman said:
What do you guys think?
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If using tap then as @Wookii points out, there’s usually Co2 dissolved into the input water.

An idea… wait at least two hours into the photoperiod before WC. Gives the plants time to store Co2 in the tissues first. Also, leave the lights on during WC so they can uptake further whilst exposed to the air.

There’s what is in the water column (what you measure using pH as a proxy) and what is in plant tissues at any given point in time.
 
Geoffrey Rea said:
If using tap then as @Wookii points out, there’s usually Co2 dissolved into the input water.

An idea… wait at least two hours into the photoperiod before WC. Gives the plants time to store Co2 in the tissues first. Also, leave the lights on during WC so they can uptake further whilst exposed to the air.

There’s what is in the water column (what you measure using pH as a proxy) and what is in plant tissues at any given point in time.
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I use 50/50 tap and rainwater, hopefully that's ok!

Had the same thought as you and so did the water change at 5pm, 4 hours into the photoperiod. Actually was much nicer to do it with the lights on, and good to know that the plants can use that aerial CO2. It worked well! Glad to have the flexibility now.
 
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Think you could be right and Dad is wrong according to_
James Starr Marshall did a series of articles about algae in a set up as I remember one of his conclusions was inconsistent CO2 by doing W/C during photoperiod .Also low light plants with no shading. As I remember it did well in contests
 
If you run a pedal to the metal knifes edge high tech tank, it might be an issue, but in a more relaxed case like yours I'd say do it whenever it's convenient.
I was also introducing stress to my self and family by doing waterchanges early sunday mornings. I still prefer doing wc's early to satisfy my obsessiveness, but in reality I do them when it fits in with everyones schedule.
I think it's more important to do the maintenance than being overly ocd about exact timing.
 
shangman said:
Do you have any photographs of your tanks with natural light? I'm really interested by the natural light because it's used so rarely but seems like actually a great thing to do!
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I have a few somewhere stored on a dusty Hard drive. I used to photograph every fish, coral, invert that I had to look after and have thousands and thousands of pics (predominantly marine) but it became a real chore photographing, resizing, uploading 100-200 pictures a week and then answering all the business related questions, that I stopped taking personal pictures of my tanks and just enjoyed them myself.
It's also hard to get a true representation of what they look like in natural light because they overexpose and you lose the sun rays. It's not as bad with the light coming from the above but mine is predominantly lit from the back as well which means I woke up to a lovely gentle twinkling light bursting through the back and silhouetting the fish.

I do plan on going through the old pictures as I want to get prints made of quite a few and I'll throw up a thread when I do.

As for using the sun, I personally won't have a tank without some natural illumination now. The fish congregate in the areas it comes through, they look far more beautiful in it and it just makes everything look better. It's part of the reason why I don't bother with marine forums anymore because I can't understand the hideous lighting everyone uses to bring out colours in corals that make them look so unnatural. I much prefer the look of a natural reef.
 
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