Water keepers And medical Treatment Of Fish

[frederick thompson]

First of all a little about my self. i have kept fish all my life. But KOI for 22 years
i have a 4000 gallon outside pond. upper pond and lower pond.
2 x windows. 2 x pumps . bottom drain. 2 x Lines. one line is skimmer to 78 micron mesh Ultra sieve to 8000 LPH Pump to 50 watt UV to Tangible Pond Returns 2 feet of the bottom of pond .

Line 2 Bottom Drain to Automated Rotary Drum inside a nexus 320. which has moving K 1 as bio side.
to 8000 gallon LPH pump to 55 watt UV to upper pond . waterfall by shute to lower pond

2 x Air pumps. One for bottom drain. and one for moving the K1 in the Nexus

A few all ready know of me . i had a new pond build and revamp on my garden last year. i was advised to put this thread on a blog on it s own. so here it is.

i have done a lot of the medical stuff myself. and saved quite a few fish. i am not a vet. and do not claim to be.
if people are not confident with some of the stuff in this thread . my advice is see a vet.

this book is brilliant for people who keep fish for medical treatments and water keeping

HOW TO ANAESTHESIA AND HOW TO TOPICAL TREAT A BACTERIAL WOUND

1 Have all your kit ready tools scalpel, tweezers, scissors, cotton buds, surgical rubber gloves. wet towels. tissue.
and medical stuff 1 x 150ml of Kusuri Masuizai Koi Sedate. 1 x 100ml Kusuri Roccal Wound Cleaner 1 x 100ml Kusuri Anti-Bac 1 x 25gms of Kusuri Orahesive Sealer Powder
1 x 50ml Kusuri Top Coat Sealer

thats basicly the kit you need ready before sadating

to sedate the fish use the Kusuri Masuizai Koi Sedate
to make sure it has gone under, or as i phrase it knocked out, watch muscle movement. it should look like this

here is what a ulcer wound looks like

now for the topical treatment next

 

[frederick thompson]

now to clean the wound with Kusuri Roccal Wound Cleaner use this
with a cotton bud and leave for a couple of minutes. then dab it away with clean tissue

then apply your topical treatment either iodine or betadine or
Kusuri Anti-Bac which is what i used this is what it should look like when finished

then the next step is to apply Kusuri Orahesive Sealer Powder
i put this on twice. give it a blow when applied to get rid of loose stuff
and this is what it looks like

then apply the liquid sealer and this is what it looks like
i just pour this over

that s it folk s that s the lot. if you follow this you won t go far wrong

Here is a picture of my 26 inch chag.
he had a big hole. Ulcer in his body. I have repaired it. his was twice as bad as the above
And here is the evidence. where it is grey marked. new scales
Taken the other week

So it shows what can be done.

 

[frederick thompson]

MOUTH ROT AND HOW TO TREAT WITH PHOTO S

If treating mouth rot there are a few things to take in to account
the mouth is a very hard place to heal. REASONS it is always flexing and moving. plus it is always being put into gunge and dirty areas on the bottom of the pond plus the sides
so really the best place to treat mouth rot is in a quarantine tank. or some type of hospital. away from the dirty pond . this will make the healing easier as it should be clean.
if not. it won t take long for Bacteria to eat into the jaw bone
here is a picture of mouth rot

after cleaning with antibac. use iodene or anti bac

then use Orahesive Sealer Powder

then use Top Coat Sealer

this is what it is like when healed or nearly heal s or
nearly healed this is after 3 weeks of treatment

all of the above was done every 3 to 4 days over a 3
week period with the topical treatment way

if it is worst which is what one of mine was. you can make a PP Potassium Permanganate paste
by buying the pp powder or crystals. you just get an egg cup put a few drops of water in add powder or crystals
and mix until a paste is formed. and paste on to wound . or you can use chloramine t which is weaker version of PP
all the time the above was done with PP i had salt in the tank at 0.3 for 24 hours then upped it to 0.6 at 25c tempreture
i only used the paste twice. my fish was in worst condition then the above pictures.
all the best fred

 

[frederick thompson]

GILL ROT

Gill area. very delicate area. couple of simple things to do to make things easier
notice the piece of card pushed gently in to gill so as not to get any treatments in the gill
also protects the scales. this is a bacteria infection first it was trimmed to good area
then topical treatment applied.

this one was painted with mercurochrome. while this is still wet apply the
oraheasive powder.
as above

above all sealed with Top Coat Sealer and ready to go back to pond
or QT

 

[frederick thompson]

FIN INFECTIONS AND FIN ROT
when i explain fin rot i am talking of the simple fin infection but total stripping of all the
tissues joining the fin rays together.
this is the start of fin rot so needs trimming
and then topical treating. i used PP paste
on my own fish after i trimmed back

this one has the anal fin rotting as well
which also happened to my showa and chag

this one here can be cleaned up with a scrape of any dead or dying
matter on the anal fin and topical and seal

here is a fish that has had stitches to fix a damaged ray
done with a needle into a reef knot.

if you don t have the confidence to do that use super glue
and glue them together.
all the people with very small fish as in tropical fish tanks
use a magnifying glass and tweezers ,
all the best happy fish and water keeping fred

 

[frederick thompson]

TUMOURS

The help for tumours is not all that great even if a Vet is on hand. but some can be done to help the fish
depending on size and location on the fish.
some tumours growing on the outside of fish can be removed smallish ones that look like TAGS
To remove them you will need very sharp instruments.
Blood loss can be quite large. but the good thing is koi have a very good blood clotting capability
My advice if your not confident to do this. is to get a vet to do it.

here is a small tumour

o remove this it needs to be cut at a shallow angle
hold the tumour with tweezers and cut at an angle
the reason for cutting at angle is to see how deep it goes
you may have to remove one or two scales
use tweezers.

once removed clean up the wound with cotton swab
with antibac. getting under the epidermis
then put your topical treatment on

oraheasive powder

then apply a liquid sealer

I personally have never removed a tumour.
but i would if it was a small one like the above pictures.
especially if my fish was on its to passing away.
all the best fred

 

[frederick thompson]

CARP POX
carp pox is a viral infection,
The symptoms are like a white waxy lump. i have had a couple with this.
its unsightly . not much you can do with this. and its quite common
the carp pox lumps will recede, when the weather gets warmer.
also as a koi gets older, the develop an immunity to carp pox.

WATER TESTING
DP4 test on chlorine in the pond and tank.
here is the tablets i use for testing for chlorine in pond and tank.

here is my sample taken this morning. i do this once a week to look for chlorine
reason i trickle in and out of the pond. one is evaporation two is because my water levels have
to be spot on. for my pumps and auto rotary drum.
i have 3 pod dechlorinater . but they let a slight bit through. so i use ST every 3 days. one teaspoon full every 3
days. kills the chlorine. ST about 7 u k pounds. lasts me a year. cheap as chips. of flea bay. that is the ST behind my sample.

Here is my water perimeters for this morning PH high
Ammonia. Nitrite. Reason for six. 3 are for tank and 3 are for
the pond.

there all good 3 on the left are the pond 3 on the right are the tank.
2 outside ones are the DP4 chlorine test. i also do nitrate once a week
on a sunday. and KH and GH on a sunday. my KH is very high here in HULL
lots of limescale. which in my case is very good on the pond side of things. its just right.
if it was to low. i would have to add baking powder every day.

THE REASON FOR THE ABOVE

at the end of the day we who keep fish. be it tropical marine or koi pond
we are water keepers and not fish keepers. to stop getting any of the medical symptoms
like i have shown mouth rot. fin rot. ulcers and lots of other bacterial infections. we have to get our water right.
that s why i call us water keepers. and not fish keepers.
and that is the reason for all the testing. so our water creatures have a nice healthy environment to live in.

I always ask this to myself. if i have a sign of infection. or see a fish with clamped fins. or sulking on the bottom. or raised scales.
what is the cause of it. because even though i cured the fish. it will still be there to do more damage to other fish
it is still in there. so the first thing i do is test my water parameters. if there ok. i then scrape my fish. put it under
the micro scope and look for things like
whitespot
costia
skin flukes
gill flukes
chilodonella
Trichodina
Lice
Anchor worms
leeches
plus there are others these are the main ones though

 

[frederick thompson]

HERE IS SOME PICTURES OF WHAT TO LOOK FOR UNDER A MICROSCOPE
in the koi world the deadliest killer of them all is white spot, along with KHV
here are some pictures

white spot

white spot cannot be killed when attached to the fish
its vulnerable when it leaves the fish. in a free swimming stage
to attack white spot we use dose of
Malachite green at 2% 10ml per 176 uk gallons and formalin at 30% 10ml per 150 uk gallons

Costia

costia is free swimming and feeds on the host withe its mouth. can also live as dry. on
such things as nets
shape is like a kidney bean
when treating costia use 2x treatments
Malachite green at 2% 10ml per 176 uk gallons and formalin at 30% 10ml per 150 uk gallons


chilodonella

Malachite green at 2% 10ml per 176 uk gallons and formalin at 30% 10ml per 150 uk gallons 2 x treatments

Trichodinia

looks like a flat disc under microscope
this is one of the easiest to get rid of. On Koi anyway.

Potassium permanganate 1.5 gm per 220 uk gallons
also Fluke solve.

Skin fluke
This is what caused the ulcers on my two koi, my chag and Showa
it gets its host in numbers

here is what it looks like under a scope

Superverm 1ml per 100 uk gallons
Also salt is very good at getting rid of skin fluke a dip at 1.8% for 10 minutes once daily 4 or 5 dips . taking scrapes as you go along. and look under the microscope.
also potassium permanganate at 1.5 ppm every 4 days for two treatments

 

[frederick thompson]

Gill fluke

gill flukes share a lot of the things of skin fluke
gill fluke is an egg layer. but can lay eggs and they can lay in wait untill it
is just right for temperatures to suit it to hatch.so can lay dormant.

so for this reason you are never sure you have got rid of them.they can live on
the body as well as the gill. notice the 4 eye spots

superverm is one of the best. use at Superverm 1ml per 100 uk gallons
also chloramine T its treatment is strong at 15 to 20ppm. this is dependent on water ph and gh hardness
1 dose of chloramine T with respect to water ph and hardness
here is a chart

 

[frederick thompson]

Anchor worm
the thing with anchor worm is they have many life stages
they do not resemble an adult .
once they attach to a fish they never leave until it dies
it simply sheds its eggs into the pond from its host

one treatment of salt at 0.6 for 3 weeks will kill anchor worm
also Dimilin 1gm per 220 uk gallons

here is a chart for treatment also use code below

use codes for the above chart

the reason for the chart star colour system is quite a few.
01 red star is the stronger one. Blue is next stronger. and green the least stronger
02 also you may have a fish in there that one of the chemicals will hurt for example PP
will kill sturgeon fish. rudd and Tench. so it gives you other options
03 when using all chemicals put lots of oxygen in the water.
04 Some of the chemicals have changed or you can t buy over the counter

 

[frederick thompson]

QUARANTINE TANK

The quarantine tank is a godsend. the reason for this. it is separate from where the disease is.
or you can put new fish in the tank. before adding them to there new pond. because they may have infections when
you bought them. and you don t want to add this to your pond or fish tanks.
a rule of thumb to segregate for is 28 days with heat, some separate for 40 days.some bacteria operate at different temperatures. so what i do is have the
temperature set at 3c. and up it to 35c. i take it up 3 degrees at a time. every 30 hours. reason so i do not shock and stress the fish. this is done after the fish has been in the tank a few days.
obviously i add the fish at same temp as the fish bag. then take it down to 3c then back up to 35c. then back to my normal temperature of 22c all done slowly so i do not stress the fish.
stress is one of the largest killer of fish. also taking scrapes every few days. to make sure the fish is clean

another good thing about a separate medical unit. or quarantine tank is in my case its a hell of a lot cheaper.
my pond is 4500 gallons. my tank is 500 gallons, obviously treating a fish in 500 gallon is cheaper then 4500 gallon.

what i do is every now and then i net 4 fish. and scrape them them put it under the microscope. also if i see a fish sulking. Flashing. clamped fins. scales raised.
or showing redness. Heavy mucus, white spots marks. growths on the fish like cotton wool. blindness showing a film over the eye. IE say a white fish looks pinkish in colour. also i take samples from my filters. pond sides. and put them under the scope.

if any one of these symptoms is showing into the quarantine tank that fish goes. might just be stressed. because of PH being to high. or a large swing in PH change.
in that case it will go in the tank at 0.3 salt at temp of 22c. salt is very good for stressed fish. calms them down. and leave for a few days. then water change the salt out. a little each day
there fresh water fish after all. and remember the biggest killer to our fish is stress.
knocks the immune system down.and the bugs then take advantage.

 

[frederick thompson]

DECISION TREE CHART> LEADING TO DIAGNOSIS OF KOI DISEASE

The decision chart is there to guide you. if in doubt get professional help
i personally find it a good guide and tool to use

 

[frederick thompson]

NEW POND SYNDROME OR N.P.S.

N P S Or NEW SETUPS. is where a lot of the bad stuff starts is the water right before adding our loving creatures
How many creatures do we add at once.
Is the tank or pond perfect for our fish and water creatures. IE filters, pumps. air. Light. UV. and most important the toilet system
there are lots of things that i have probably missed out here. as we all have different setups. some have tropical fish. some shrimps
some wild life pond. some mechanical pond. i can go on and on. BUT at the end of the day the setup has to be right

As a few on this great site know of me. i had a pond built last year. i have a thread on the build from start to finish. also i documented stuff that happens as i went along
i had NEW POND SYNDROME I lost a few fish. and saved a few. what i am leading to. is i made mistakes. some time s i had no choice. like when i added all my fish in one go. No choice as my holding tank ripped. so near on 45 fish
went into the new pond. filters where not mature enough for this. should have added fish two at a time say every 10 days.

next mistake. cement leeching. my pond is fibre glassed. so i thought they where safe. how wrong i was. my pond brick work runs a few layers above the fibre glass. when it rained it leeched into pond. how i spotted this problem
it laid in my waste chute in the rotary drum. burnt my fish. causing ulcers. i put this right by adding pond sealant on the brick work in upper pond and lower pond.

another mistake. i trickle water in and out of my pond. reason for my drum. and pumps. water level has to be bob on. also it does a 10% water change slowly each week.
which i run it through a 3 stage dechlorination it was not taking the chlorine fully out. result burning the fish and killing them. put right by adding ST every 3 days.

Another mistake. was oxygen. i was putting to much air into my pond. i use air for the fish. and also to push crap to my skimmer. which is a surface cleaner. i have a spin drifter dome on my bottom drain
which moves around and keeps the crap moving. i had this to high. sorted now. by turning it down. also on a timer.

It took me 6 month s to get all these problems sorted. first off. you aint got a clue what it is. trial and error. by eliminating certain things, plus luck.

Also it took 15 months for my pond and filters to mature. on some ponds it can take 2 years. remember the pond is also a large filter. so if you clean it out with scrubbing or water pressure blasting.
your knocking the good BIO down .

I have put some of my mistakes in there to show that we think we have the perfect pond . no matter how much money we have thrown at the build and setup. and believe me i spent a lot of money on my pond
and still had big problems. i hope you learn some thing or do not make my mistakes. because it breaks your heart when you lose one of your loving creatures.

At the end of the day. where not fish keepers. WE ARE WATER KEEPERS
have a great NEW YEAR all the best fred

 

[PARAGUAY]

Great information there Fred, sure it could go to the tutorials section,not a pond keeper myself but as you say we are all water keepers.Have a great new year too

 

[frederick thompson]

Great information there Fred, sure it could go to the tutorials section,not a pond keeper myself but as you say we are all water keepers.Have a great new year too

If you look on my pond thread it is there mate. But i thought i would just do it stand alone. Where it is all together. So people can just go to it if they have a problem. And it may help them
There is still some more to add. When i get around to it. Forget the pondkeeper bit . A fish is a fish . Just smaller doses on chemicals.
Smaller fins to work on.
Use of magnify ing glass. Instead of naked eye.
You have a great new year mate. All the best take care fred.

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[frederick thompson]

INFORMATION AND LEARNING OFF OTHERS

Here is a conversation i had with ZOZO Marcel. so i pasted it other to here.

Yes mine are tropical, little very small 15mm corydoras pygmaeus.. They are so small and wiggly fast bottom dwelling fish that it's difficult to spot when something is wrong. If skin damage gets obvious than it already is in severe stadium. I noticed after a few days that some of them had a grey eye. And probably the stress of beeing moved again to a complete new invironment accelerated the sympthoms and a day later again spotted a few with an excess of mucus excretion on their skinn. Saw one dying and looking at that one with a microscope i found trichodinas. It all added up with the mucus and going blind, obviously if a trichodina ends up in the eye it destroyes it.

Went back to the lfs to look at the rest and also found a few there looking like missing an eye.. So the Trichodina came from the lfs.

The first i tried was a med from Sera (Liquid praziquantel).. But the product description said 24 hour treatment and a repeat 7 days later. this didn't help very much. And putting alcohol in the tank also didn't do it very good. Than @sciencefiction adviced me to contact Dr. Fiona Mcdonald a UK fish vet. And i wrote her an e-mail, she replied with the solution, i bought a bag of her own developed "fluke solve" powder based prazi, she said just use it for 14 days long. I did and all got better again. Trichodina is to tuff for a short term treatment with repeatment, and this Fluke Solve product can be used for long term 14 day treatment without ill effects and this also kills the later hatched eggs.

Through this conversation with ZOZO Marcel. i learnt a wee bit more. as it made me use google. i found out that there are over 200 species of trichodina. which amazed me. Also that site Dr. Fiona Mcdonald a UK fish vet was very
informative. so i now have another site to learn off. through a conversation with a forum member and a friend.

A OVERVIEW OF WATER QUALITY

As i have said on lot s of occasions in this thread we are water keepers first and foremost

When i first seen this picture above. i was belly laughing. i thought it was funny.
but lets be serious here. its not far off the truth that is going on in any fish populated environment be it a pond or
Aquarium fish tank or gold fish bowl. That is inadequately maintained or poorly filtered.

fish live in a totally different environment to us humans. in fundamental terms they draw life giving oxygen from water.
through the gill. with a process known as osmosis and diffusion.
we can walk away from pollutants in the air. when we sense it,
Fish cannot. they are enclosed in a pond or a tank. so this is where we humans come in to play.
By helping to maintain the fishes environment.

water quality has very little to do with water clarity. it is all to do with with the absence of deadly pollutants and the presence of good bacterial minerals and oxygen.

The biggest pollutant to our system is food. fish excrete Ammonia. through the gill. and also the urinary and faeces discharge systems into ammonia then we have a problem.
because if we don t help the fish. the water starts to go TOXIC

SO HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS

we deal with it through getting a good filtration system put into place. enough to deal with the amount of fish in the space of there environment .
In a koi pond filter system. the Pump is the heart. and the lungs is the biological filtration stage.
when you analyse most systems two distinct functions are under taken by a filter system

Firstly mechanical removal of Particulate material waste
Secondly fish toxic water pollutant removal.

so in reality we could be considered a water re usage system. simply put. take dirty water from the pond and put clean water back

how we do this in the koi pond. we use micro screens. sieves. vortexes and bio media. they come in all shapes and sizes.
some for debris removing. some for biomass colonisation. i have both. the biomass is the good bacteria . we help to make.
it forms on the filter media like plastic pieces. in my case moving K1 which is moved with air pump.after my auto drum 58 micron screens thats where they wait.
so in a nutshell my drum cleans first then the very fine pass through. and get to second stage plastic media. which then colonise this and en mass this.
it took my filter systems 15 months to mature. and that was after reusing my old plastic K1 media. if it had been brand new. probably would have took two and a half years
plus we add oxygen via air pumps

 

[frederick thompson]

BIO MASS AND BENEFITS

the biomass en-mass the media we prefair to use IE plastic media. wool. and grog rock. and i can go on and on
Remember this is the good bacteria
for the system to work properly the water from the pond must pass over the media. with enough contact time. with the bacteria to be able to remove the
pollutants in the water water contact time can become a key factor in filter design .
some factors to consider to help good bacteria to colonise
carbonate alkalinity of pond water. temperature of pond water . contact time of pond water in filter. dissolved oxygen. Organic matter in water.available food nutrients [ the pollutants ] amount of media surface for bacteria to colonise
above are a few factors that influence the effectiveness of the vital filter bacteria to remove the pollutants .

the bacteria multiply by binary fission and will slowly expand to deal with all load levels of harmful ammonia and nitrite.
remember colonies of biomass will fall back in such times as winter when it gets colder. or temps drop so there efficiency reduces. in removing pollutants

most quality issues result because the filter bacteria are not instant workers. and the pollutant load is greater then the active colony of filter bugs at that given time.
so to help them. feed nice and slow to start with. increasing slowly as you go along. we all go oooohh my poor fish they look hungry. and bang to much food.
believe me i have done this.

 

[frederick thompson]

I hope some of the above medical and water side of things benefit you. that was the idea. some on here have more knowledge then me with fish keeping of shrimps
and tropical fish. i love looking at pictures and reading up on how the tanks are planted. like i say some very knowledgeable people
my thing is koi and koi ponds. me personally . i used to think. my water looks crystal gin rin clear. perfect. how wrong i was. after studying the make up of a koi pond and what makes things right.
there is a saying. and it is. what is right for you. maybe not right for another. So you obviously do what is best for you and your setup. my pond is exactly where i want it to be right now. maybe that will change in time
like if i alter a pump or filter. i have learned that fish don t like change. i have experimented with this with thing s like slowing my water flow. speeding water flow up. turning air up turning air flow down.
they react with such as flashing. because there starting to stress.
like i say. i hope the thread helps some people out. That was the idea. to help people in not making some mistakes i made. also to try and give a little confidence in having a go at saving a poorly fish.
18 months a go. i had never done things like putting a fish to sleep. or cleaning and treating wounds. a mate shown me. and taught me. i am now very confident. in doing this.
Also the reason i wanted to learn was in my case. i went to two vets. and they did nt know anything about fish.
all it is. in my opinion is being taught how to do it. and the more you practice the better you get. my first time i was scared. then when i seen the results. i felt like i had won the lottery.
so like i say. i want to pass it on. so people can learn and have a go if there stuck with a dieing fish pet.
all the very best for 2018. and happy fish keeping. and be lucky.
Fred

 

[frederick thompson]

Two weeks ago. Two of my fish where leaping out the pond like missiles. Lucky enough my 14 year grandson was here.
Here we go frrddyboy teaching time.
He loves the science of a pond.

So we netted two of the fish that where jumping.
And scraped and microscoped the mucus.
And both where riddled with skin flukes

I made my grandson have a look. At my computer screen and told him to point them out. He did.
So i asked him to google koi parasite photo s and tell me what they are. After all it was now his show.

Skin flukes grandad he says.
Good lad i say.
Now google how to treat skin flukes. He does fluke P. What about getting rid of the mucus first.
It does not mention that he says.
Grandad

I then tell him that is where the mistakes comes in. People just treat with fluke P. And if the mucus is thick on a fish and there is a flukes on skin under the mucus we won t kill it.

So google how to get rid of mucus first. PP or chloramine T. My grandson says.
Right where going to use chormine T first. Because we have orfs and tench. And ct is milder then PP.

For 2 days. Then 30% water change
Then flukeP for 7 days.
Then CT againe then 30% water change then fluke P again for another 7 days.
All the time uv s turned off.

Rescraped the fish. Microscoped 4 of them.
And all flukes have gone.
And nothing on slides.
Jobs a good un.
Fred


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[frederick thompson]

Thought I would update this.
After I had got rid of the skin flukes.
I had another infection. White spot. I believe it was caused because of the fish immune system being knocked back after using Cholrimine T
And fluke treatment.

How I got rid of the white spot.
I bought FM & G. Mix. Five day course of treatment.
This can wipe out sturgeon orfs tench Rudd.
I tried to catch them. Not a chance. So decided to take a chance and treat with them in the pond.
Turned UV off for 5 days.and treat with FM&G mix.
And this worked and killed the white spot.
Fred

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