For ever.
Years ago (maybe 30 years) before marketing of hi-tech pricey dechlorinators, fish keepers used to the photographic fixer, "hypo" from camera shop, actually sodium thiosulphate.added to water as a dechlorinator.
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Water changes without dechlorinator
- Thread starter sciencefiction
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Years ago (maybe 30 years) before marketing of hi-tech pricey dechlorinators, fish keepers used to the photographic fixer, "hypo" from camera shop, actually sodium thiosulphate.added to water as a dechlorinator.
Julian
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Yes, you just double dose, so 0.1gr to 0.3gr per 10l water will cover it.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/chlorine-chloramine
Julian
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Thanks mate. Just saved me a fortune. This needs to be stickied!
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xim
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Yes, but it just neutralises the Chlorine part, leaving Ammonia/Ammonium free. I used to use hypo and lost an Oto cat because of it.
That's the reason I switched back to Prime.
roadmaster
Member
Yes,plant's can take up ammonia but many do not begin with enough plants to not only take up ammonia portion of chloramines,but also from fish food's/fish waste/organic's possibly leaching from substrate.
Takes a fair amount of plant's I think.
Takes a fair amount of plant's I think.
You only get ammonia if your water has chloramine, which is still quite rare in UK. The ammonia dose if any is quite small in fractions of a ppm so will be quickly taken out by plants and filter bacteria so generally not an issue.
roadmaster
Member
Agreed,only maybe a problem with Fish only tanks, and or new tank's with too few plant's, too many fish,too much food,= ammonia. in addition to that which is in most tapwater here in U.S.(Chloramine)
Once read that there is always ammonia present in tank's holding fishes at level's perhaps not high enough for our test kit's to measure, assuming biological activity/oxidizing is taking place at/in the substrate, and also as a by product of fishes/inverts assuming they are eating/breathing.
Am often in wonderment as to how I was able to keep many of the fishes I have cared for without the benefit of live plant's, and how much easier it became after learning from those here ,and elsewhere how to grow em much more successfully.
Unusual for and old dog to keep learning, but sometimes..the dog is a bit unusual.
sciencefiction
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I've been still doing the water changes without dechlorinator as I haven't been able to order some. They seem fine short term. But I will get some when I can.
7 otto cats in one of my tanks haven't seen dechlorinator in many weeks and so far don't care about it. I don't argue that long term it could be dangerous. I am probably going to regret it all but right now its necessity.
I've got more than enough plants. I think what's helping is my emergent huge plants in my big tank but then again I've been doing it in another 2 not so well planted tanks.
7 otto cats in one of my tanks haven't seen dechlorinator in many weeks and so far don't care about it. I don't argue that long term it could be dangerous. I am probably going to regret it all but right now its necessity.
Julian
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If there is chlorine in my water, and I don't use dechlorinator, how long does it take to do its damage to the fish/filter bacteria? Is the damage instant or does it hurt them over time? Just wondering if its safe to add water to the tank first, and then add the dechlorinator immediately afterwards.
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Generally the chlorine kills bacteria in a couple of minutes. Fish show irritation symptoms in about same time as well.
If adding chlorinated water to your tank, you dose dechlorinator for full tank volume into tank then add water. Eg for 180 litre rank add dechlorinator for 180litres. Also filter pumps off whilst adding water. The dechlorinator dechlorinates effectively instantly.
If adding chlorinated water to your tank, you dose dechlorinator for full tank volume into tank then add water. Eg for 180 litre rank add dechlorinator for 180litres. Also filter pumps off whilst adding water. The dechlorinator dechlorinates effectively instantly.
sciencefiction
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I read this the other day and it's been bugging me since. I normally use a python to do water changes which basically means I empty half the tank and then pour water straight from the tap into the tank back again. Many times, most times I've dosed the dechlorinator a lot more than 2 min after I start pouring the fresh water in.... Sometimes in the end. So basically I've been doing it all wrong for years.
The odd times I had an issue is when I noticed my platies going to the surface during a water change and my pleco getting a few extra gulps from the surface. But I always thought it was lack of oxygen because all filters were stopped and it pretty much resolved itself each time I plugged the filters back in.
chlorine kills bacteria in a couple of minutes.
Not sure I agree - back when I took the Bio-Hazards course, we were taught the opposite, chlorine"kills" a small percentage of pathogens (including bacteria) in a few minutes, but exposure times of 10 -20 min (& 60min) are required for more rigorous sanitation ... if you just want to put bacteria into a "static" phase, that is more easily done.
Chorine remains the "sterilizing agent of choice" only because it is cheap, CHEAP, cheap ... the by-products are also well "understood" (researched, identified etc) so drinking water treatment continues to rely heavily on chlorine ... at one point, chloramine was heavily promoted, but that fell on the wayside when the by-products were found to be far-ranging, it's also (often) more $$ than chlorine so it's still in limited use (UK & some areas of the US embraced it, other countries ruled against it's use re certain by-products).
Depending on your water supplier, chlorine levels are rather lower at the point of use than at point of "sanitation" (local water system installed treatment stations as various points on the line to enable better control & reduce chlorine levels at line "start").
Adding water back with a good amount of splashing/aeration helps to offset incoming chlorine levels (not sure if this is due to increased aeration or "offed" chlorine, likely synergy).
It's recommended to leave filters running with "splash" when adding tap water directly to tank with a Python (sorry don't recall if that was in the "Use" videos that ran non-stop at local shops that sold the Python system - or if it came up in discussions ...)
If you're adding Prime it was recommended by Seachem (back when GM was on the forums) to add in a dose for entire tank volume at the start of refill, then, possibly a 2nd dose upon water refill completion (S had done considerable research before bringing this compound to market) as it was possible for Prime to be significantly neutralized by various components in tank, so if you had a situation of loads of organics in tank + maximum allowed chlorine levels, additional dosing might be needed to maintain minimal chlorine levels.
Not sure I agree - back when I took the Bio-Hazards course, we were taught the opposite, chlorine"kills" a small percentage of pathogens (including bacteria) in a few minutes, but exposure times of 10 -20 min (& 60min) are required for more rigorous sanitation ... if you just want to put bacteria into a "static" phase, that is more easily done.
Chorine remains the "sterilizing agent of choice" only because it is cheap, CHEAP, cheap ... the by-products are also well "understood" (researched, identified etc) so drinking water treatment continues to rely heavily on chlorine ... at one point, chloramine was heavily promoted, but that fell on the wayside when the by-products were found to be far-ranging, it's also (often) more $$ than chlorine so it's still in limited use (UK & some areas of the US embraced it, other countries ruled against it's use re certain by-products).
Depending on your water supplier, chlorine levels are rather lower at the point of use than at point of "sanitation" (local water system installed treatment stations as various points on the line to enable better control & reduce chlorine levels at line "start").
Adding water back with a good amount of splashing/aeration helps to offset incoming chlorine levels (not sure if this is due to increased aeration or "offed" chlorine, likely synergy).
It's recommended to leave filters running with "splash" when adding tap water directly to tank with a Python (sorry don't recall if that was in the "Use" videos that ran non-stop at local shops that sold the Python system - or if it came up in discussions ...)
If you're adding Prime it was recommended by Seachem (back when GM was on the forums) to add in a dose for entire tank volume at the start of refill, then, possibly a 2nd dose upon water refill completion (S had done considerable research before bringing this compound to market) as it was possible for Prime to be significantly neutralized by various components in tank, so if you had a situation of loads of organics in tank + maximum allowed chlorine levels, additional dosing might be needed to maintain minimal chlorine levels.
sciencefiction
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That's exactly what I've been doing for years because I noticed it helps if you are filling up from the tap directly even though I always used dechlorinator. If I don't put the water splashing on top, whether I pour Prime or not on time, the fish may gasp. Which means I guess, Prime doesn't work instantly when you do large water changes as I normally do. I maybe wrong, but it's all trial and error. It perhaps works eventually to prevent future problems.