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The Green Reaper

Hi Anthony,
Looking much better. You can spot dose Excel in the front there during water change. Not sure why you should be getting the BBA unless you overshot the max light values and have a different pH profile. You'll need to look at it again. Yellow is fine as long as the fish are OK but the timing is critical.

Cheers,
 
Clive,

I haven't got round to calibrating the pH pen yet to even determine the pH profile, i'll hopefully manage it this side of Christmas. I do think it's flucationg pH values, as the CO2 wasn't running properly due to the fire extinguisher sitting on and preventing the mech timer from working, so for a couple of days the drop checker wasn't turning green until 2 hours after the photoperiod began.

The tank is certainly looking healthier, hope to get some colour back soon. Will start EI dosing next month.

Any thoughts on the pesky snails? Assassin snails help?

Many thanks

Anthony
 
OK, well unstable CO2 is a primary factor, so that's the likely cause.

As far as snails, they are very difficult to eradicate because eggs are everywhere. I've done it by being diligent about mechanical removal as well as cranking the CO2 beyond their threshold to drive them out of the tank or to kill them outright. This only works with fish that have acclimated to very high CO2 or with the tank empty of fish.

Cheers,
 
Cheers for all your help this year Ceg, its been interesting, educating and helpful! Merry Christmas :)

A couple of things :

I've noticed the H polysperma has some curled leaves - deficiency of some kind?

39281436311_62a70e0324_b.jpg
20171225_091527 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Also this Rotala has done nothing and not grown at all since being cut and planted about 6 weeks ago. It has no algae on it but no growth at all? It's at the edge of the tank but the flow seems decent and it sits just directly off centre of the left hand Radion....

39281436311_62a70e0324_b.jpg
20171225_091527 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr
 
EI fertilisers bought. Will start the dosing regime as soon as my TNC complete runs out.

Considering purchasing a doser to deliver the elements in smaller amounts over the course of a day - surely this will provide more consistency?
 
I've noticed the H polysperma has some curled leaves - deficiency of some kind?
Hi Anthony,
Sorry for the late response, I have been away for Xmas.
I'm always trying to remind folks that any structural deformation is always a result of poor CO2 since Carbon is the main ingredient in structure.
As usual, this always presents us with a puzzle because we may observe that other plants do well in the vicinity and so it is tempting to stray from the path and to look for other causes, but rest assured this is a CO2 issue. Different plants have different strengths and weaknesses, so it is entirely possible that this is a weaker, less efficient specimen than the plants surrounding it, or, that it is such a fast grower that it requires more CO2 than the other slower growing plants. The usual solutions are to be considered, i.e., injection rate increase, light reduction, increased Liquid carbon dosing and so forth, each with it's advantages and disadvantages. You may also wish to consider moving the plant to a different location to see if the mean CO2 levels (or flow) are better at that location. You can also try to prune in order to see if the new leaves are better adapted. Place the cutting in an open area to see if it does better there.

Also this Rotala has done nothing and not grown at all since being cut and planted about 6 weeks ago. It has no algae on it but no growth at all? It's at the edge of the tank but the flow seems decent and it sits just directly off centre of the left hand Radion....
Same story here. Slow growth, once lack of nutrients (PO4 especially) are eliminated as a possible root cause, can only be a CO2 issue.
Again, you can try moving the stem around to see how it responds.

The problems in a CO2 tank never get any easier, they only get trickier...

Cheers,
 
Hi Anthony,
Sorry for the late response, I have been away for Xmas.
I'm always trying to remind folks that any structural deformation is always a result of poor CO2 since Carbon is the main ingredient in structure.
As usual, this always presents us with a puzzle because we may observe that other plants do well in the vicinity and so it is tempting to stray from the path and to look for other causes, but rest assured this is a CO2 issue. Different plants have different strengths and weaknesses, so it is entirely possible that this is a weaker, less efficient specimen than the plants surrounding it, or, that it is such a fast grower that it requires more CO2 than the other slower growing plants. The usual solutions are to be considered, i.e., injection rate increase, light reduction, increased Liquid carbon dosing and so forth, each with it's advantages and disadvantages. You may also wish to consider moving the plant to a different location to see if the mean CO2 levels (or flow) are better at that location. You can also try to prune in order to see if the new leaves are better adapted. Place the cutting in an open area to see if it does better there.


Same story here. Slow growth, once lack of nutrients (PO4 especially) are eliminated as a possible root cause, can only be a CO2 issue.
Again, you can try moving the stem around to see how it responds.

The problems in a CO2 tank never get any easier, they only get trickier...

Cheers,

Clive,

I hope you had a good holiday season with family and friends?

So it seems that poor CO2 levels are yet again rearing their ugly head. I have the filter at max flow which equates to 1850 lph, on a 90l tank this should be more than enough.

- Both Hygro species are suffering with deformed leaves
- Rotala Wallichi is narrow, poorly coloured and generally weak in growth
- Rotala Macrandara isn't growing at all (though no algae)

- I don't want to increase liquid carbon, as i'm concerned for the shrimps health
- If injection rate is increased any more, livestock suffer and i've witnessed livestock loss
- I may trim the Macrandra again, see if I encourage any growth at all
- I may mess with the inflow / outflow. Currently have a spraybar on the back wall with inflow in the back right corner. Thinking of replacing with the glass lilypipe on front left, with inflow on the rear left corner (so in effect the water flows from front glass, right hand side and back to the inflow)....

WCs are still 1 x 50 litre every 3 / 4 days with the same fertiliser dosing, increased to 20ml per day (about 10 times the manufacturers proposition for estimated EI levels).

I have to say, I find planted tanks just as tricky as the SPS Acropora tank I kept a few years back. Tempted to go salty again at this rate :(
 
And how do you suggest I do that?

- Tank volume 90l
- Filter Eheim 700e running max of 1850lph (TWENTY times turnover)
- CO2 Co2art regulator / 2kg FE, running approx 4 bps, drop checker lime green throughout entire photoperiod
- Inline CO2 diffuser last cleaned 3 weeks ago using bleach soak
- Liquid Carbon @ 5ml per day,
 
And how do you suggest I do that?

Happy New Year Anthony. Yes, all was well, and now, back to the coal mine for resumption of abuse. :banghead:

As usual, the first step in resolving any CO2 issue is to reduce the lighting in order to reduce the CO2 demand. I've lost track of your lighting schedule and I seem to recall that you had intended to increase the max intensity to a value above what we discussed earlier. It is entirely possible that in your attempt to induce color changes you increased the intensity too quickly for those particular specimens.

Cheers,
 
Thought i'd check in with a few updates and, as ever, issues :

- Switched over to EI fertiliser regime 3 x macro and 3 x micro doses on alternating days with one day no ferts and a 50 litre WC
- Switched the spraybar out for the old lilypipe and moved the intake to be on the same side as the lilypipe
- Only running the Radions @ 30% peak, 9 hours photoperiod, Kessil not being used as algae is a bit of a problem at the minute
- Running 4 - 5 BPS which is quite high but can't seem to reduce this to a sensible amount of BPS without the CO2 levels being below 30ppm

So the problems :

- Dwarf hairgrass which has been in the tank for about 6 weeks, initially took a while to establish, then grew nice and green, and now it's now yellow and brown in places, definitely struggling
- Staurogyne repens carpet is struggling similarly, poor growth and some melt
- HC added a few weeks ago just isn't adapting, melting away it seems
- Detritus buildup on fine leaved plants - now is this normal? Never noticed it before. I feel my flow rate is more than adequate.
- Poor colour, which seems to be a perennial problem for me, just cannot get red plants to stay or turn red.

A very poor quality video to show flow etc

 
Hi Anthony,
Well, it looks to me that you have a lot of CO2 mist at the top few inches of the tank and not much movement of the mist to the bottom. The fish seem to be gathered around the bottom near the hairgrass. Is it because you had a camera pointed at them, or could it be that's where the CO2 is at it's minimum value? Why did you remove the spraybar? I know they are ugly but there must be other ones that aren't that awful green color. You could try moving the lily pipe to the right but I'm not sure that would get flow down to the bottom where it's most needed.

Whenever I make a change to the configuration, I always do another pH profile check, which is sometimes more of a reality or sanity check. You might find that the pH does not drop as quickly and that may throw of the critical timing.

Cheers,
 
Clive

- The fish are very shy and rarely venture from that position or in the plants
- The lilypipe was put in a week ago, the effects you're seeing have been there longer than that
- The spraybar was removed to try and create a more natural flow for the fish, but I'll revert back to it
- The CO2 does get down to the substrate but not as effectively
 
Hi mate,
Neons ought not to be shy, but instead should be shoaling out in open areas. Torpedo shaped fish can adjust to any flow. I'm suspecting that they don't like the CO2.As I mentioned, you might want to have a look at the pH profile again and perhaps try different panes against which to mount the bar.

Cheers,
 
So are you suspecting that the fish are stressed due to excessive CO2 levels?

If so why would my plants be struggling with CO2 shortage?

Confused.
 
Anthony,
Do not be confused. What the fish experience has nothing to do with what the plants experience.

CO2 concentration in the tank is not homogeneous. At every point in the tank the CO2 will vary. As i mention many times ad nauseum, only about 10% of the CO2 you inject actually reaches the plant beds. Carefully study your own video. The mist spraying out of the lily pipe predominantly stays at the top of the tank. Only a fraction actually reaches into the plants which have the most difficulty at the bottom. Your DC turns yellow and you assume that what the DC shows is what the plants see. This is a false assumption.

So at the top of the tank, the CO2 concentration is high, but the gas is on it's way out of the tank. Have you not noticed that the plants that have their stems tall are not suffering CO2 deficiency? That tells you that the CO2 is high near the mid level and top but is poorer nearer to the bottom. This anomaly occurs frequently in CO2 injected tanks so that the fish suffer hypercapnia if they swim at the top where the CO2 is excessive, but the plants suffer CO2 deficiency where the CO2 is at it's worst concentration.

The fishes behavior indicates to us that the distribution of CO2 is uneven, so the fish congregate where the CO2 concentration is at it's lowest.

The riddle of all tanks is how to distribute the gas so that it is not extremely high in one area yet extremely low in another area. That is why we always advocate paying attention to flow rate and distribution.

I must point out again that as the light intensity is increased, the variation in CO2 concentration becomes more of an issue. When the light intensity is low, it's much easier and much more forgiving to have a variation in gas concentration because the demand for CO2 is lowered, which gives you a greater margin of error.

Without a PAR meter, it's very difficult to determine what the actual PAR values are and this causes ambiguity.
If the PAR at the substrate level exceeds the required CO2 concentration at that level then those plants will be at risk of deficiency. Carpet plants are poor CO2 competitors so it is also not a good assumption that all plants have the same ability to assimilate CO2.

Again, this is why we are continually emphasizing that a CO2 profile check is necessary, because the distribution and timing of CO2 may not be what we assumed, even from week to week. The distribution techniques are always in question so that's why we emphasize the use of spraybars, not because lily pipes don't work, but because we have a better chance of good distribution with the spraybars.

It happens to be a common occurrence in CO2 injected tanks that the plants fail due to poor CO2 while the fish suffer from hypercapnia. When this occurs then we know automatically that the combination of our injection rate and our distribution is failing.

Pull the light back and re-establish good CO2 distribution which lowers the CO2 demand and feeds the weakest plants. Move the outputs to different panes to see which position works best.

Cheers,
 
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