The Green Reaper

[gex23]

- Added a cheap Aqua One wavemaker from the LFS as a stop gap solution to reduce dead spots / improve flow at substrate level / improve CO2 distribution. 1500 LPH, will be buying a better quality / smaller form factor variant in the future, either an Ecotech MP10 QD or a Jebao RW-4

- Have my inline CO2 atomiser in soak, with the hope I have better success with it this time around, to improve CO2 saturation over the bazooka diffuser

- Need to think about my external filter siuation, not happy with the flow from my Eheim Pro 3 350 soon-ish. May look at the 1500XL, which has a flow rate of 2400LPH, rated for tanks from 300 - 1500 L. Fluval FX4 / FX6 are too wide to fit under my tank.

- Bought some Sumatra wood for hardscape but can't find a setup i'm happy with, so will attempt plant only to try and hone my skills for a while.

- Need to trade the Male GBR in so I can get some Amano / CR shrimp.

- Suffering lots of algae on the cryptocorne and buce leaves, unsure how to proceed with this.

 

[gex23]

I seem to be talking to myself on here but oh well, i'll continue. Might interest someone

1) Soaked the inline atomiser and installed, works brilliantly. Seems more efficient than the in tank version, more microbubbles in and around plants, slightly greater PH drop also.

2) My crypts and staurogyne repens are covered in hair algae, no idea what to do, always struggled with algae on the crypts. Dialled the Radions back by 10% peak intensity.

3) I'll be adding another Eheim external before too long. My choice is either a second one like a 2217 (a combined flow of 2050LPH) , or replace my pro 350 with the 1200XL, with a flow of 1700 LPH, one larger filter would produce less clutter, however 2 smaller filters would give some redundancy against failures.

An updated equipment list / regime :

90 litre tank
Ecotech Radion G3 XR15FW x 2
Eheim Pro 3 350 (1050LPH)
Aqua-one wavemaker (1500LPH)
Up Aqua in-line CO2 atomiser
100w in tank heater
CO2art Sodastream dual stage reg kit - 3bps
ADA aquasoil
TNC liquid fertiliser - dosing 3 x 10ml per week to simulate EI levels
Easy carbo 5 ml daily
25l water change weekly, 50/50 RO and tapwater (treated with Prime)

Current lighting schedule :

ESL by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Anthony,
No, you're not talking to yourself. It's quite fascinating and we are learning a lot about the Radions. They are actually quite powerful and you were wise to use a ramp profile and to limit their maximum output. Their strength explains the difficulty you were having with CO2. I'll be interested to see how the Max limit of 40% performs.
You could try just turning one on at the beginning and staggering the ramp for the other so that will reduce the stress.

It looks like your ON time is 9am but when does the CO2 come on? The Easycarbo will certainly help.

2) My crypts and staurogyne repens are covered in hair algae, no idea what to do, always struggled with algae on the crypts. Dialled the Radions back by 10% peak intensity.

CO2 mate. Have you done a CO2 profile from gas ON till the end of the photoperiod? This will tell you a lot.
Also do massive water changes of at least 50%.

Cheers,

 

[gex23]

Hi Anthony,
No, you're not talking to yourself. It's quite fascinating and we are learning a lot about the Radions. They are actually quite powerful and you were wise to use a ramp profile and to limit their maximum output. Their strength explains the difficulty you were having with CO2. I'll be interested to see how the Max limit of 40% performs.
You could try just turning one on at the beginning and staggering the ramp for the other so that will reduce the stress.

It looks like your ON time is 9am but when does the CO2 come on? The Easycarbo will certainly help.


CO2 mate. Have you done a CO2 profile from gas ON till the end of the photoperiod? This will tell you a lot.
Also do massive water changes of at least 50%.

Cheers,

Ceg - thankyou for taking the time to reply.

- I agree re: Radions power, 1 is recommended for my tank, I initally used one but I wasn't happy with the shading this created. Good poing regarding using one, followed by another during peak sunlight hours.
- My CO2 comes on at 0730, 2 hours before the lights, and switches off at 1830, 1 hour before the lights switch off.
- Easy carbo, as I understand isn't an ideal 'solution' and certainly not something i'll be using long term,
- You mention CO2 - do you feel it's a lack of CO2 distrubution or CO2 levels? My drop checker is a very light lime green by lights on and all through the day. The drop checker is situated at the opposite end of the tank to the spray bar, approx 2/3 of the way up the tank.
- Sorry I don't understand what you mean by CO2 profile - do you mean measuring the PH drop? Could you explain so I can create this profile and give you the information you're asking for - sorry if i'm being dumb
- Water changes - is 50% recommended as the norm? Also what duration? 50% weekly?

Many thanks for your input.

 

[Edvet]

create this profile

Try to take readings every 30 mins with a electronic pH device (not strips) from before pH goes on, till lights out.
pH should be lowest at lights on, the pH drop in relation to your waterhardness will tell if it's plenty (the softer the water the bigger the needed drop will be)

50% weekly

At least. It's to remove excess nutrients and all kind of metabolites and toxins you wouldn't remove otherwise. It would also help to lower the water below the plants in trouble and rub their leaves to clean them. Preferably before lights on so they can "stuff themselves"with CO2 (from the air) and be clean so they can absorb nutriens and CO2 better from the water column
.

drop checker is situated at the opposite end of the tank to the spray bar, approx 2/3 of the way up the tank.

This looks to be the place where it can catch CO2 the best. Try placing it where the plants are suffering
remember : https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker

 

[gex23]

Try to take readings every 30 mins with a electronic pH device (not strips) from before pH goes on, till lights out.
pH should be lowest at lights on, the pH drop in relation to your waterhardness will tell if it's plenty (the softer the water the bigger the needed drop will be)

Electronic PH meters sound expensive - they were when I was in the reefing side of the hobby. What about PH solution test kits rather than strips?

least. It's to remove excess nutrients and all kind of metabolites and toxins you wouldn't remove otherwise. It would also help to lower the water below the plants in trouble and rub their leaves to clean them. Preferably before lights on so they can "stuff themselves"with CO2 (from the air) and be clean so they can absorb nutriens and CO2 better from the water column

I've been doing 25 litres a week, but will increase this to 50 litres a week from now on then.

The plants in question are an inch off the substrate so I wouldn't be able to emerse them unless I did a close to 100% water change. I'll have to clip any affected leaves.
.

looks to be the place where it can catch CO2 the best. Try placing it where the plants are suffering
remember : https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker

Cheers I will do, so down low at the front.

Thankyou for your advice and input so far.

 

[Edvet]

PH solution test kits rather than strips

Strips are far to inaccurate for this. pH pens are quite affordable these days. If you fork out for an Ecotech Radion these should be in your range, especially if you are going to use CO2. Bad CO2 is far worse then no CO2

 

[ceg4048]

Electronic PH meters sound expensive - they were when I was in the reefing side of the hobby. What about PH solution test kits rather than strips?

I agree with Edvert that a quality pH pen - AND hi & low calibration solutions should be in your arsenal. I'm a fan of Hann and Milwalkee brands, but there are other good, less expensive brands.

In the mean time however just use your liquid kit so that you have an idea of what's going on and of how the gas is behaving.

- Easy carbo, as I understand isn't an ideal 'solution' and certainly not something i'll be using long term,

Easycarbo is no less ideal than suffocating your fish with CO2 and it's an excellent tool, at least for solving CO2 deficiencies in the short term. There are many folks who use Easycarbo exclusively and avoid all the complications and toxicity associated with gas injection.

Lets face it, when we inject CO2 this is like condemning your fish to a Gas Chamber. Why is this OK but Easycarbo such a pariah?

The combination of gas and Easycarbo is a great way to go, but the main downside is the expense, especially for large tanks.

Water changes - is 50% recommended as the norm?

Yes. More is even better.

Also what duration? 50% weekly?

Yes. More frequently such as 2X or 3X if you are experiencing an algal bloom helps tremendously.

Cheers,

 

[gex23]

Interesting thoughts, many thanks for all your input.

I'll be performing 4 x 25 litre WCs a week for the foreseeable future then.

Regarding pens - anything a but cheaper than the Hanna / Milwuakee offerings you would recommend? I'll get one purchased next week.

Looking at the tank this morning:

- The crypts are pretty much covered in hair algae
- The alternanthera reneckii 'mini' has lost all it's red colouration (new plant so possibly adapting to the tank?
- The plant growth seems leggy / stunted

So dropping back the lights to help solve the algae can't be helping the other plants - or is this all / mostly down to CO2 issues?

Could I be over fertilising? I'm using this fertiliser :
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-complete/

The reason I suggest fert issues is that my ADA soil is pretty rich in nutrients and is under a year old?

Algae on crypts

20171122_112853 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Leggy growth (unknown stem also)

20171122_112919 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Loss of red on new Alt Reineckii 'mini red'

20171122_112924 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

 

[AndreiD]

You need to clean and cut the leafs of the plants that are covered in algae , cleaning is needed when you do the water changes

 

[Danny]

How are you finding the TNC ferts? I'm also going to use their complete and carbon.

 

[ceg4048]

Regarding pens - anything a but cheaper than the Hanna / Milwuakee offerings you would recommend? I'll get one purchased next week.

OK, well not sure of your max budget but here are a couple of possibilities:
Oakton Eco Testr pH 2+ - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration i.e. no need for screwdriver (still a bit pricey though )
Dr. Meter pH100 - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration middling price
MacDoDo pH-02 - Inexpensive and also has auto temperature compensation and autocalibration

So dropping back the lights to help solve the algae can't be helping the other plants - or is this all / mostly down to CO2 issues?

Yes, no question. More light never "helps" plants. It only helps algae. Light causes algae. You need to repeat this Mantra. It's very important. The only effect of more light on plants is that it forces them to grow faster. It does not make them healthier. If sufficient nutrients and CO2 are available for the intensity level, only then will they be healthier. If the light forces a growth rate of higher than the level of nutrient/CO2 can deliver the plant's health fails and algae attack. That is the sequence of events so you must always consider the CO2 availability BEFORE you implement higher light levels.

Could I be over fertilising? I'm using this fertiliser :
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-complete/

No. Nutrients do not cause algae. This is Mantra #2.
When you do not have sufficient nutrients then this causes algae.
The algae that you are reporting and those that are visible in the photographs are due strictly to poor CO2.

Reduce light intensity. Fix your CO2/flow/distribution and you will resolve the algal blooms.
The pH readings will show you how the gas is behaving and will indicate a path forward.

As noted byAndreiD, you need to mechanically remove the affected leaves and scrub the glass relentlessly. The algae that is in the tank spawns more algae so water changes and harassment of the blooms that are present will help your cause. Again, as mentioned, Easycarbo/Excel and the like will help you to evict the resident blooms while you fix the CO2/flow/distribution/light.

Cheers,

 

[gex23]

OK, well not sure of your max budget but here are a couple of possibilities:
Oakton Eco Testr pH 2+ - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration i.e. no need for screwdriver (still a bit pricey though )
Dr. Meter pH100 - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration middling price
MacDoDo pH-02 - Inexpensive and also has auto temperature compensation and autocalibration


Yes, no question. More light never "helps" plants. It only helps algae. Light causes algae. You need to repeat this Mantra. It's very important. The only effect of more light on plants is that it forces them to grow faster. It does not make them healthier. If sufficient nutrients and CO2 are available for the intensity level, only then will they be healthier. If the light forces a growth rate of higher than the level of nutrient/CO2 can deliver the plant's health fails and algae attack. That is the sequence of events so you must always consider the CO2 availability BEFORE you implement higher light levels.


No. Nutrients do not cause algae. This is Mantra #2.
When you do not have sufficient nutrients then this causes algae.
The algae that you are reporting and those that are visible in the photographs are due strictly to poor CO2.

Reduce light intensity. Fix your CO2/flow/distribution and you will resolve the algal blooms.
The pH readings will show you how the gas is behaving and will indicate a path forward.

As noted byAndreiD, you need to mechanically remove the affected leaves and scrub the glass relentlessly. The algae that is in the tank spawns more algae so water changes and harassment of the blooms that are present will help your cause. Again, as mentioned, Easycarbo/Excel and the like will help you to evict the resident blooms while you fix the CO2/flow/distribution/light.

Cheers,

Many thanks for all your advice, it's all being taken on board and i'm learning new things on a daily basis.

Max budget ideally £50 for the PH pen / tester as wanting to upgrade to the Eheim 1500XL external too.

Mantra #1 and #2 remembered and repeated

One thing, regarding CO2 - I don't really know how I can 'increase' it anymore? I'm running 3 bps which seems high for a tank capacity like mine, and is being distributed by an inline atomiser so should be pretty efficiently distributed?

The only way to improve the flow would be adding further powerheads or upgrading the filter to a larger one with increased output? The thing that confuses me with this is that I see a lot of ADA 60Ps on here with lush growth running a relatively modest filtration system / water turnover capacity and no wavemakers, and yet they manage lush green plantations.

Increased my WC frequency and quantity, will keep up with the liquid CO2 and all in one ferts on a daily basis, and may well reduce the radion lighting even further, the only danger being tweaking too many variables too often meaning an equilibrium cannot be established.

 

[gex23]

How are you finding the TNC ferts? I'm also going to use their complete and carbon.

I find them very straightforward to use. As to whether they are any good - i'll leave that to people more qualified than me.

Well priced compared to others on the market though.

 

[gex23]

You need to clean and cut the leafs of the plants that are covered in algae , cleaning is needed when you do the water changes

Noted, i'll make sure I incorporate this into my general maintenance going forward. Many thanks.

 

[foxfish]

Hi Gex, the PH pens I have used, are just the very cheap ones that need calibrating with fluids & a screw driver! They cost around £10 & have always seemed to do the job of forming a profile. Unfortunately they don't seem to last & become inconsistent after a few weeks.

 

[ceg4048]

One thing, regarding CO2 - I don't really know how I can 'increase' it anymore? I'm running 3 bps which seems high for a tank capacity like mine, and is being distributed by an inline atomiser so should be pretty efficiently distributed?

The only way to improve the flow would be adding further powerheads or upgrading the filter to a larger one with increased output? The thing that confuses me with this is that I see a lot of ADA 60Ps on here with lush growth running a relatively modest filtration system / water turnover capacity and no wavemakers, and yet they manage lush green plantations.

Just for clarity, could you confirm that the water and gas mixture is exiting into the tank from the spraybar shown in post #36? It looks like there is a gas line on the heater wall, just to the right in the photo, or is that something else and the atomizer is installed feeding the filter outlet line?

The pH profile will tell us what we need to know.

Another idea is to move the spraybar on the same wall as the heater in that photo. Not a guarantee, but something to try if the numbers don't look good.

Also, we always talk about reducing the amount of filter media to get a better flow throughput in the filter.

Anyway, the first step is to see the pH numbers and go from there.

As foxfish mentions, the bottom end probes may be OK in the beginning but their long term reliability is questionable. I see no point in buying disposable gear because there is always a need to use the pen whenever we are dealing with CO2. Remember that whatever unit you buy, there is always a need to calibrate regularly, so include calibration fluid in your budget.

Cheers,

 

[gex23]

Just for clarity, could you confirm that the water and gas mixture is exiting into the tank from the spraybar shown in post #36? It looks like there is a gas line on the heater wall, just to the right in the photo, or is that something else and the atomizer is installed feeding the filter outlet line?

The pH profile will tell us what we need to know.

I replaced the in tank diffuser with an inline atomiser last week. This is installed on the outlet pipe and exits from the spraybar, producing plenty of microbubbles.

The drop checker has been moved down to the bottom left where the crypt parva is struggling and is still a nice lime green during the day.

Another idea is to move the spraybar on the same wall as the heater in that photo. Not a guarantee, but something to try if the numbers don't look good.

I have pondered that idea - I think i'll run a double spray bar over the length of the back glass when I upgrade the filter.

Also, we always talk about reducing the amount of filter media to get a better flow throughput in the filter.

That's a relevant point, I run the baskets about 80% full, so assuming a reduction will help flow? I'm planning on adding a second powerhead in the tank near the filter intake aiming back across to the left to improve flow distribution.

, the first step is to see the pH numbers and go from there.

As foxfish mentions, the bottom end probes may be OK in the beginning but their long term reliability is questionable. I see no point in buying disposable gear because there is always a need to use the pen whenever we are dealing with CO2. Remember that whatever unit you buy, there is always a need to calibrate regularly, so include calibration fluid in your budget.

Cheers,

pH pen wise - I think i'll get the Dr Meter ph100 you listed, the price is fairly resonable and as you say I have to factor in calibration fluid into the overall running costs also.

Another thought was to run just one radion for the first and last 2 hours of the photoperiod, running both for the middle 5/6 hours? Only concern is tweaking too many variables will surely only confuse matters.

Apologies for the long winded reply but many many thanks for all the help and advice so far, I hope it will have a positive effect eventually.

 

[gex23]

Hi Gex, the PH pens I have used, are just the very cheap ones that need calibrating with fluids & a screw driver! They cost around £10 & have always seemed to do the job of forming a profile. Unfortunately they don't seem to last & become inconsistent after a few weeks.

Foxfish - many thanks for your thoughts and input, as I mentioned above I think i'll get the Dr Meter pH 100 pen, a bit more justifiable at £40 but hopefully not a disposable item!

 

[ceg4048]

I run the baskets about 80% full, so assuming a reduction will help flow? I'm planning on adding a second powerhead in the tank near the filter intake aiming back across to the left to improve flow distribution.

Yes, you really don't need a whole lot, especially if it's the sintered glass or ceramic noodle type. These really have a negative impact on flow. Whatever supplemental pumps you use, they should always be mounted on the same wall as the spraybar and face the same direction as the holes in the spraybar, i.e. towards the front glass. Pumps can also be placed directly under the spraybar to assist in moving water across to the opposite side.

Another thought was to run just one radion for the first and last 2 hours of the photoperiod, running both for the middle 5/6 hours? Only concern is tweaking too many variables will surely only confuse matters.

I really wouldn't worry too much about the number of variables right now. The priority is to get the tank healthy. The only thing to worry about is to ensure that the variable that you do change is in the positive direction.

I understand that the spread of a single unit is not aesthetically pleasing, but when you run the two together it's best at this point to keep their outputs low because you will be doubling the PAR output to the tank.

You may also want to think about adding some cheap stems or sword plants to the tank to get the biomass up as that will help. you can always throw them out later if they don't fit with your scaping plants, but a high plant mass helps to stabilize the tank.

Cheers,