Surface Scum, Dark stuff on Leaves, Yellow Gravel. HELP!

[niru]

Hello

I am a reasonable newbie (only 8 months) into planted aquarium. I have a 180 l Juwel Rio with 2 X 45 W HOT5, internal + Eheim Ecco Pro 200 filter, and a small pump for increased water circulation. I dose EI, pressurised CO2 at 2 bps. Water is hard (gH 17, kH 12, pH 7-8). I have a reasonable planted tank with around 45 small fish and 3 apple snails. Plants are Crypts, Sword, Hygrophilia, Rotala Macandra, E. densa, Vallisneria nana, Anubias, Ludwigia Rosafoliea, etc..

2 months back I got a small BGA on the front gravel, not a qorrysome stuff, but did a 4 day Blackout and increased NO3 & circulation, cleaned/added filters, and did a heavy prunning.

Of late I have seen that some section os the front gravel is a bit brownish-yellowish (is it a precursor of anothe BGA attack!?!?), theres some surface scum, AND some leaves of some plants have black/dark deposits (its not BGA as it doesnt get rubbed off as easily as one would have expected for BGA).

In our local LFS, there isnt a great plant variety (I am in Swissland), so one has to wait and plant as one gets. So there are no carpet and a lot of surface is light-exposed.

Filters are reasonably cleaned. I have removed the extra foams from Juwel inner filter and added cintered medium (as James suggested on some other forum), and plant leaves are seen gently swingling in the whole tank. Eheim output is on spray bar so good surface movement as well.

I am at loss to figure out the imbalance in the tank. Any tips/suggestions are most welcome. (Originally posted this on the water chemistry forum, guess this is a better place.)

Many thanks.

-niru

 

[mlgt]

I think adding some shrimps to the clean up crew would help also.

How often do you do a water change?

 

[Dolly Sprint 16v]

Niru

Any chance of some picture - we then can provide a better diagnosis of the algae and what action to be taken, how long is your lighting period and for 180 litre tank i I would be running with a high co2 injection rate than 2 bps unless you are running co2 24/7.

Regards
Paul.

 

[niru]

I think adding some shrimps to the clean up crew would help also.

How often do you do a water change?

I havent added shrimps till now since I am not sure if these fragile looking creatures will suffer from my tank.

I do a weekly 50% WC (following the EI method).

Niru

Any chance of some picture - we then can provide a better diagnosis of the algae and what action to be taken, how long is your lighting period and for 180 litre tank i I would be running with a high co2 injection rate than 2 bps unless you are running co2 24/7.

Regards
Paul.

Will get some pics tonight. Lighting is 9 hrs continuously.
CO2 was tricky initially: Originally had the Dennerle ladder (wastage), so changed to a diffuser in tank (cleaning issues and too many bubbles), then inline into the cannister (Eheim guys warned me NOT to do so). So finally I put in the Duply inline diffuser reactor S. With this, the 2 bps gives me a green DC (again Dennerle ampule, so no issues with 4dkH water etc). Perhaps I could increase it?

The dark stuff affects only the outer edges of older leaves of some plants. And its also very little. But I am worried if its an indication of some imbalance.

The substrate is Dennerle power soil plus small sized gravel. Some parts of the front gravel are getting yellowish-brownish. 1st I thought its trace deposition (Fe) since my water is hard and most trace are EDTA chelated. I currently use Easylife ProFito, will change to dry mix (Fluidsensoronline) once the bottle empties out.

 

[mlgt]

Yopu will find adding shrimps and nerites and ottos might save your tank somewhat.

Adding a handful of MTS will also be beneficial. Adding something like red nose shrimp will help clear some of the harder algae, but the shrimp will have a feast and you will end up with hundreds of shrimp if you leave them to it.

 

[LondonDragon]

I would say its most likely a lack of circulation and CO2 in the tank, that external filter is way under power for a tank this size and you mention a small pump, you need big pumps for this tank

Also ensure good housekeeping in regards to filters and gravel cleaning at water changes.

 

[niru]

The Juwel internal plus eheim give 1200 l/h. Even with plants, i guess it still would be abt 5X turnover. But will add more.
CO2 DC is green. Do I still add more?

 

[Fred Dulley]

The Juwel internal plus eheim give 1200 l/h. Even with plants, i guess it still would be abt 5X turnover. But will add more.
CO2 DC is green. Do I still add more?

Lime green is favoured more. Have you moved this drop checker to different locations in the tank to show that there is a good distribution of CO2 throughout the tank? Might be worth it if you haven't already.

 

[niru]

Following the suggestion here, I have now upped my CO2, and moved the DC to the other end to check the distribution. Yesterday night, instead of uploading some photos (which I will surely do soon), I did a mid-week 50% water change, and added a pad of Lilaeopsis Brazilianis on the substrate. On checking this & other sites to identify the black stuff on the leaves, it appears more like black spot algae (some also refer to it as a red algae) & mention a PO4 &/or CO2 deficiency as a cause. Surely this much is only on some leaves of slow growers like Anubias, but also on Amazon Sword. The web description appears to match.

The yellowing of parts of substrate is, IMO, small mulm particles getting attached to the gravel. I say this because it appears mostly on the front side where the spray bar is sending all the water down & I can see particles suspended in water. All my plants are nicely pearling in general after 5 hours of light. Over the weekend I plan a filter cleanout for the internal as well as external cannister.

I also upped the spray bar position & angle so as to increase the surface ripples in hope of reducing the surface scum (eisenbacteria as per Gusko's website), and added trace soln today morning. Tomorrow the autodosers will fill EI macro & micros once again. I really think my PO4 is good enough, but will have to still confirm this.

Any ideas are welcome. Many thanks for all members on this forum (&site). I keep myself busy reading various discussions; kind of motivates me more & more to achieve a nice tank.

 

[flygja]

I have this on my non-CO2 lowtech tank too. Black stuff on some leaves, which I attributed to high temps (30'C on average here). Since I got a fan to cool down the water, it hasn't returned. Gravel still turns brown though, probably due to lack of circulation. I have an old Tetra EX90 on a 70L tank.

 

[LondonDragon]

The Juwel internal plus eheim give 1200 l/h. Even with plants, i guess it still would be abt 5X turnover. But will add more.

Once you add media to the filters and they been running a while, the flow is reduced greatly, between 40-50% I run a Rio 125l tank with a 1500lph filter, 2xKoralia 1 (1500lph) and occasionally have the Koralia nano (900lph) in there too lol

You probably have enough filtration already, what you don't have is enough flow all around the tank to distribute nutrients and CO2.

 

[niru]

Hello LD

I agree with your flow issue statement. Apart from the 2 filters, I also have a Sera Submersible pump (400 l/h) running with a T-o/pto confuse the water flow & increase mixing, all 24/7. The spray bar is on the back wall, and Juwel internal o/p is positioned towards the other side wall, effectively a circular motion from spray bars and an axial o/p from Juwel. I have a nice Crypt on the "other" side of the tank, and the leaves there are swinging gently, plus the O2 pearling bubbles make a lot of terbulent motion throughout the tank. Hence I was kind of (self) assured abt the flow.

But your point (& numbers) are well taken; I will add another pump to increase the flow further.

I am not very sure if the black-stuff on leaves is temp issue as mine is never above 26 anywhere in tank. But more like the flow causing uneven nutrient distribution.

BTW, can a gH 18 water with kH of 12 have a Magnessium deficiency? Sometimes I see some new leaves getting a classic green vein issue (or is it Fe over dosing)? Particularyl Hygro Poly Rosa, or is it just how these leaves are supposed to look??

Many thanks once again!

 

[ceg4048]

...BTW, can a gH 18 water with kH of 12 have a Magnessium deficiency?

Yes it is possible. KH has little to do with Magnesium but instead is related to the level of Carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. GH is a direct measure of the combination of Calcium and Magnesium, but the number itself does not tell you how much of each is in the water. It is therefore possible to have a GH value that consists entirely of Calcium, or entirely of Magnesium, or a mixture of both. If all or most of your measured GH was due to Calcium then you can easily incur a Magnesium deficiency if you were not dosing Magnesium.

...Sometimes I see some new leaves getting a classic green vein issue (or is it Fe over dosing)?

Fe overdosing is unlikely to result in this syndrome and it is more likely a deficiency of some micronutrient. However, it's unclear what you mean by "classic green vein issue". If you have a photo that might help clarify. H. polysperma does have an unusual color pattern so it could be normal for this plant.

Cheers,

 

[niru]

Yes it is possible. KH has little to do with Magnesium but instead is related to the level of Carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. GH is a direct measure of the combination of Calcium and Magnesium, but the number itself does not tell you how much of each is in the water. It is therefore possible to have a GH value that consists entirely of Calcium, or entirely of Magnesium, or a mixture of both. If all or most of your measured GH was due to Calcium then you can easily incur a Magnesium deficiency if you were not dosing Magnesium.

OK! Will check with the local water company re their Mg values. The line of thinking I was having is this..

There are 2 "metals" Ca and Mg, and in water they can reside in their carbonate OR bi-carb forms. gH measures Ca+Mg, while kH measures carb+bicarb. So a high gH water has high Ca+Mg (individual % not known) & high kH water has more carb+bicarb. If one doesnt distinguish between carb & bicarb (just call it pH buffer, aka alkalinity), then there are 3 variables (Ca, Mg, alkalinity) with 2 measurements (gH, kH). Of these kH purely gives alkalinity. Then following cases are possible:

1) If the entire gH is solely due to Ca, then that amount of Ca cations is combined with the full carb+bicarb anions.
2) If gH is solely due to Mg (unlikely in real case), then only Mg cations have combined with carb+bicarb anions.
3) A mixture of the above 2 cases.

Since my gH is 18, way larger than kH of 12, I was presuming that I have enough Mg in water (though Mg would always be less than Ca anyway in real tap water). Of course this would depend on the molecular weights & how much moles each contribute to gH and kH measures. Mg has less molecular weight than Ca, so even a small amount of Mg as measured (hypothetically, say) via a gH-type test actually would correspond to many more Mg ions hanging out in the water when compared similarly to Ca. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that a high gH water will have both Ca and Mg in "sufficient" amount so as not to be deficient for the tank's purpose.
I would really welcome any comments or light-shedding on this.

Fe overdosing is unlikely to result in this syndrome and it is more likely a deficiency of some micronutrient. However, it's unclear what you mean by "classic green vein issue". If you have a photo that might help clarify. H. polysperma does have an unusual color pattern so it could be normal for this plant.

Cheers,

By "classic" issue, I meant that veins turning more green as compared to the leaf. I am adding as much Epsom in my EI macro as much as (or even more!) KNO3, but after reading some posts was wondering if I need to continue doing so.

BTW, could the gravel yellow-brown-ishing be also related to water hardness? Particularly that Fe (EDTA chelated in EasyLife Pro-fito??) getting precipitated out, and depending on the flow pattern in my tank, some areas of the substrate get more deposit?

I have to check the LFS if they have Koralia pumps. Has anyone used Tunze pumps which seem to available online with some Swiss shops. Just want to compare these with Koralia (mainly the price to lph & flow patterns).

I have to put up pics I know, but with 2 "over-enthusistic" kids at home, this keeps on getting postponed. Have to make a serious effort.

 

[ceg4048]

...There are 2 "metals" Ca and Mg, and in water they can reside in their carbonate OR bi-carb forms....

Since my gH is 18, way larger than kH of 12, I was presuming that I have enough Mg in water (though Mg would always be less than Ca anyway in real tap water). Of course this would depend on the molecular weights & how much moles each contribute to gH and kH measures. Mg has less molecular weight than Ca, so even a small amount of Mg as measured (hypothetically, say) via a gH-type test actually would correspond to many more Mg ions hanging out in the water when compared similarly to Ca. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that a high gH water will have both Ca and Mg in "sufficient" amount so as not to be deficient for the tank's purpose.

Well fundamentally, the cations Ca++ and Mg++ may not necessarily combine with the anions CO3-- and HCO3- preferentially over other cations distributed in the water. Fe++, K+ and many other cations are available. In a dissolved state, these ions are all free agents. The amount of H+ in the water influences the combinations and the equilibrium state.

That is why the concentration of carbonate/bicarbonate is completely independent of the concentration of Mg++/Ca++. You can have high alkalinity with low hardness or the reverse. As it turns out, the path that ground water usually takes before it reaches us brings it into contact with dissolved CO2, which, through it's acid component Carbonic acid, dissolves abundant carbonate minerals such as chalk or limestone, thereby bringing both calcium and carbonates to the tap. This is why hard tap water is usually high in both alkalinity and general hardness. But really, KH and GH are independent. Since chalk and limestone are both Calcium based minerals there will usually be a higher percentage of Ca++ then Mg++ in the tap assuming it comes from groundwater.

By "classic" issue, I meant that veins turning more green as compared to the leaf. I am adding as much Epsom in my EI macro as much as (or even more!) KNO3, but after reading some posts was wondering if I need to continue doing so.

OK, well if you are adding Epsom salts then you are adding Mg+ so therefore this cannot be an Mg deficiency. You can try deleting the Epsom salt and see if there is a difference. Normally, when trying to determine deficiency in the leaf, we don't worry about green veins, but instead about the tissue in between the veins. If this tissue is pale or yellow then that is an indication of a deficiency, not the green veins.

BTW, could the gravel yellow-brown-ishing be also related to water hardness? Particularly that Fe (EDTA chelated in EasyLife Pro-fito??) getting precipitated out, and depending on the flow pattern in my tank, some areas of the substrate get more deposit?

Hard water does tend to precipitate out Fe deposits, but on the other hand, commercial mixes like Profito are so weak that it's difficult to believe that there is enough Fe in the mix to become so obvious unless you are dosing massive quantities. Are you certain this isn't diatomic algae? Again, without photos it's easy to misdiagnose because we are all each used to different terminology.

Cheers,

 

[niru]

Hello ceg4048

many thanks for your valuable inputs. I will as of now maintain my EI doses with Epsom..

I have made a few pics but they are on my mobile and I have yet to find time to put them on the forum (BTW whats the easiest wayto do so?), but its just lazy me.. & I will do so at my earliest convenience. Really sorry abt this delay..

Over the weekend, I got a Tunze flow pump (similar to Koralia) with variable 1500 - 4500 lph flowrate and run it on & off during the day (avoiding the feeding times). The DC is now uniformly green to lime-green in the tank. And some of my fish (platys in particular) love doing some cross current swimming!

I also upped the CO2 to 4-5 bps (guess the factory settings for reducer were 2 bps max & I had no bubble counter before. But now its been bought as well!). Plants are pearling within 3 hrs now, water is crystal clear always.

Regarding the brownish-dirty detritus on the front gravel, I now realised (remembered) that abt 3 months back I had a little BGA infection in that areas. Before doing a blackout, I had treated that areas with H2O2 with syringe in the gravel to cut the hell out of the muck. So I am wondering if this caused a good-bacteria death in the region & they havent had time to regenerate there. So perhaps the small mulm is not getting decomposed and collecting there, particularly that now that I have spray bar o/p throwing water to this part from top back of the tank. Is there any way of speeding the bacteria there?

So a side solution, today I got 2 pots of HC cuba and tonight will plant them on the front side. What is the best way to do this? The gravel is 3-4 mm. I read on other forums that planting 0.5-1 inch area cut with some rockwool (with fingers or tweezers??) might help them settle. What are the expert suggestions? Perhaps this helps to cover the substrate a bit & also use up the mulm?

 

[ceg4048]

...I have made a few pics but they are on my mobile and I have yet to find time to put them on the forum (BTW whats the easiest wayto do so?)..

Check the following thread for instructions on how to post images=> viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2618

Regarding the brownish-dirty detritus on the front gravel, I now realised (remembered) that abt 3 months back I had a little BGA infection in that areas. Before doing a blackout, I had treated that areas with H2O2 with syringe in the gravel to cut the hell out of the muck. So I am wondering if this caused a good-bacteria death in the region & they havent had time to regenerate there. So perhaps the small mulm is not getting decomposed and collecting there, particularly that now that I have spray bar o/p throwing water to this part from top back of the tank. Is there any way of speeding the bacteria there?

I doubt that this is a bacterial issue and is more likely to be diatom algae. Reducing the light intensity for a few weeks will usually clear this up.

...a side solution, today I got 2 pots of HC cuba and tonight will plant them on the front side. What is the best way to do this?

You can plant individual stems with tweezers if you have the patience or you can cut small portions up and plant them that way.

Cheers,

 

[niru]

I doubt that this is a bacterial issue and is more likely to be diatom algae. Reducing the light intensity for a few weeks will usually clear this up.

OK. But wont it affect all the other plants etc, particularly since I have upped the CO2? Or maybe I shouldnt tamper with other things now (co2 and EI), but only reduce light intensity and/or photoperiod?

ceg4048, your posts on the site have been really helpful guides to me. I am very much in the learning phase and came to UKAPS quite late. Unfortunately most Swiss aqua lovers are into reef tanks and fish only. So the LFS and local clubs have not much input etc.. So re-re-reading stuff here is supremely great

 

[ceg4048]

Glad you find the data useful mate!

Regarding the issue of lighting, plants do not really need as much light as people seem to think. Beyond the minimum required lighting, you'll find that the main effect of increased lighting is to accelerate the rate of growth. That also means accelerated growth rates for algae, which respond more rapidly to light than do higher plants. The best strategy for suppressing algal blooms therefore is to reduce the intensity of light and at the same time to ensure adequate levels of CO2 and nutrients for the plants.

You will also find that you can have lower lighting and this does not necessarily mean that you must also then lower the CO2 and nutrient levels, but it means that you can lower them. With low to medium lighting one has a much wider range of acceptable nutrient/CO2 levels, i.e. they can be low, medium, or high. But when using high lighting, one absolutely requires high nutrients/CO2.

Again we still need to confirm that you in fact have diatomic algae. If you do then there is little doubt that the lighting intensity is excessive at this stage of the tanks development and that you could probably cut the intensity by half and still be fine.

Cheers,

 

[niru]

Hi ceg

many thanks for the inputs. Yesterday night I cleaned the glass (had a little dust algae for a while, was waiting it to grow old). Most of it (not all though) was getting darker so I reckon it had reached its lifecyle's end. Scraped it out, and did a gravel vac. The brownish stuff was dust like, easy to suck and was only on the light receiving substrate, not under the shadows. Its all gone now. Had some cabomba furcata at the back side & wasnt getting much light. So moved it to the front open corner & tied to a stone (4 twigs per stone), planted 2 pots of HC cuba in the hope of getting a carpet to cover the gravel, heavily prunned dirty looking (blackish leaf edges) Hygrophilia polysperma & difformis, cut leaves of my dwarf crypto green gecko, cut & replanted Ludwigia Repens and upped the CO2 to 4-5 bps. I also moved the Tunze power head location and temporarily removed the spray bar so as to avoid hitting HC cuba directly. Then did a 50% water change. Also replaced the fine filter wool on the Juwel internal.

Today morning, I set a timer on the powerhead to run for 1/2 hr, every 1/2 hr. Its was my EI doser day, plus upped Easylife Carbo to 4 ml dose (check on a wee bit of hair algae on some random leaf somewhere). Will remove the reflector on T5 HO 45W tubes one at a time (i have 2) over the next few days. Light period is 9 hrs.

HC cuba was planted in 0.5 inch stubs with some rockwool and put into the gravel with only the leaves out. In the morning some plants are floating next to the internal filter input mesh. Will keep them there.. I hope (& pray???) that Hc does gain some foothold in such conditions.

In general all my plants have always grown nicely & now with increased CO2, start pearling in a few hours. I guess the filter mat was pretty dirty & that could have caused the main issue (just 1 week back I had cleaned the Eheim external & was hoping to clean the internal next week. Guess tank didnt want to wait!?).

Inspite of all this, I will still follow my weekly 50% WC on weekend, just avoid gravel vac till HC gets better hold. The more serios business to do now is to upload the pics (should be easy, but after being infront of the PC all day, I hate to see the dumb box in the evening at home. Have to make a REAL serious effort).

Any suggestions on my procedure??

thanks
niru