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Spraybar for bottom back

Hufsa

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Im in the process of improving/redoing my circulation in preparation for CO2 injection.
I think I need full length spraybars, but I am wondering how I should set it up when I have two external filters.

Would there be a benefit to having an additional full length spraybar running along the bottom back wall, in addition to the standard spraybar along the top back wall?
I have noticed when there is larger amounts of plants and hardscape towards the back wall, the flow sort of bounces off them and heads straight up for the surface, leaving a slow zone along the bottom back. I suspect a bar along the bottom could help the flow diffuse through the plant if the water behind has some momentum it can be dragged through with.

Please see artful illustration featuring Rotala sp. Pinetree (side view of tank)
20220113_085152.jpg


The standard option would be to run two spraybars along the top back wall, each responsible for their half of the tank. But I find this gives me excessive flow in the substrate zone in the front, and my livestock dont seem to like it much 🤔

Appreciate any thoughts
 

ian_m

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The standard option would be to run two spraybars along the top back wall, each responsible for their half of the tank
This is the standard preferred easiest and safest option as it keeps the two filters completely separate from each other. Just clean each filter alternately, job done.

You can either make your own long length spray bar from PVC pipe or join together the two filters supplied spray bars with a "block" in the middle.

As for detritus collecting at the back of the tank, run either a long air-stone or air tube along the back of the tank and run air after CO2 (if using) has turned off. This lifts up and circulates any settled detritus as well as quickly degassing CO2. My CO2 goes off at 10pm, air on at 22:45 and lights off of 11pm. Back of tank behind the plants looks reasonably clean.
 

medlight

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Mantengo una barra de rociado en la parte trasera que descarga agua para el movimiento de la superficie y también descarga agua en la parte trasera Eso trabajo con 1100gph para 39 galones
 
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Hufsa

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safest option as it keeps the two filters completely separate from each other
The filters would still be seperate from each other, with one filter running the top spraybar and the other running the bottom spraybar

As for detritus collecting at the back of the tank, run either a long air-stone or air tube along the back of the tank
Wouldnt the bottom spraybar do this job just as well though?

Mantengo una barra de rociado en la parte trasera que descarga agua para el movimiento de la superficie y también descarga agua en la parte trasera Eso trabajo con 1100gph para 39 galones
"I keep a spray bar in the back that discharges water for surface movement and also discharges water in the rear That works with 1100gph for 39 gallons".
Are you saying you are using the setup illustrated above? Or do you have one spray bar that does both things?


Ive remembered another reason ive been wanting to try this, and thats because of CO2 distribution. If one filter does the left side of the tank, and another one does the right side, like is traditional, I would need two diffusers/reactors in order to get a good mix of CO2 left to right in the watercolumn.
 

medlight

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The filters would still be seperate from each other, with one filter running the top spraybar and the other running the bottom spraybar


Wouldnt the bottom spraybar do this job just as well though?


"I keep a spray bar in the back that discharges water for surface movement and also discharges water in the rear That works with 1100gph for 39 gallons".
Are you saying you are using the setup illustrated above? Or do you have one spray bar that does both things?


Ive remembered another reason ive been wanting to try this, and thats because of CO2 distribution. If one filter does the left side of the tank, and another one does the right side, like is traditional, I would need two diffusers/reactors in order to get a good mix of CO2 left to right in the watercolumn.
It is a unique spray bar that expels water in both directions
 

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foxfish

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You would need to try it out for your self and then tell us if it works.
I love doing things like you are planning, it is all part of the hobby for me but I have not come across anyone trying what you propose so I can not say if it will work or not.
Pointing a spray bar at the surface from the bottom might de gas the tank quite quickly but it might help the circular motion … give it a go….
 

Hufsa

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It is a unique spray bar that expels water in both directions
Ah, I see. Not bad, but it means water travels in opposite directions and crashes together at some point, which will be inherently less efficient than if the water is all traveling one way.

Something like this for two filters and CO2 is how you do it.
View attachment 179865
Well yes, but actually no. This is one of my issues, I dont want to run duplicate needle valve, bubble counter and diffuser unless I absolutely have to. So this is what I am trying to avoid.

The setup would look like this from the front. Running the bars parallel to each other should mean complete mixing of both heat and CO2, independent on which filter it is coming from.
20220113_132839.jpg


You would need to try it out for your self and then tell us if it works.
I love doing things like you are planning, it is all part of the hobby for me but I have not come across anyone trying what you propose so I can not say if it will work or not.
Pointing a spray bar at the surface from the bottom might de gas the tank quite quickly but it might help the circular motion … give it a go….
You get it :thumbup: Im just gonna have to try it, this thread has made up my mind. Will knock up some purpose built bars for it later and keep this thread updated with the results. Im not too concerned about offgassing, ill make the bar suitably weak so that it doesnt ripple the surface, I just want to help the current complete a full turn within the tank without missing the dense planting at the back :geek:
 

Zeus.

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I would go for twin spray bars along the back (non at bottom), if only using one reactor/diffuser I would set the outputs from the filters to power the spray bar on the opposite side, eg in Ian's pic P1 filter outputs in P2 spray bar etc that way the CO2 enriched water will mix

Plus the lowest part of the tank is normally at the front of the tank so detritus normally collects there. The back of the tank is normally the highest level of the substrate

Also spray bar at the bottom would make maintenance a little harder IMO
 
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I’ve got a custom spray bar coming to me now with front and back outlets, the main row across the tank at 9 o’clock and the rear row at 4 o’clock facing the back glass. The idea is to be able to push good flow through the bar without causing a jet stream, but also send some CO2 and flow to the back of the aquarium, the most vulnerable to lack of flow.
 

arcturus

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Adding another option to the mix: instead of a second spraybar on the bottom, add a wave maker/power head near the substrate pointing at the filter intake. If you try the double spraybar keep us updated. It should also work.

1642094049102.png
 

Wookii

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I think your plan could well work @Hufsa - the spray bar will cause a good deal of displacement of water at the rear of the tank, and help draw water from the front. The only thing that will let it down is if the filter feeding the top spray bar isn’t powerful enough to generate sufficient flow through it to drive the water to, and down, the front glass given that it’s having to deal with a spray bar the full width of the tank.

As for the CO2, I wouldn’t worry too much about have a feed on both lines. As long as your CO2 injection gets the water column up to the target CO2 level before lights on, the water column will contain sufficient CO2 and both spray bars will distribute it.
 

Hufsa

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I would go for twin spray bars along the back (non at bottom)
Two next to each other is so ugly though :what:

if only using one reactor/diffuser I would set the outputs from the filters to power the spray bar on the opposite side, eg in Ian's pic P1 filter outputs in P2 spray bar etc that way the CO2 enriched water will mix
Thats a good point, I had forgotten I could do that :thumbup: Will write it down in case the knowledge falls out of my teflon coated brain again

Plus the lowest part of the tank is normally at the front of the tank so detritus normally collects there. The back of the tank is normally the highest level of the substrate
This is what I would think too, but when I run the full top spray bar this area gets a lot of flow, so nothing settles there.

Also spray bar at the bottom would make maintenance a little harder IMO
Another important consideration, thanks for this 😃 I might make the bottom spray bar one dimension bigger than the rest (20mm instead of 16mm), in my mind it should then tolerate a larger buildup of gunk inside without affecting the flow as much.

Adding another option to the mix: instead of a second spraybar on the bottom, add a wave maker/power head near the substrate pointing at the filter intake. If you try the double spraybar keep us updated. It should also work.

View attachment 179888
This is a good tip, I dont think I can use it with two canister filters, but it should work well for someone with just one 😊

As for the CO2, I wouldn’t worry too much about have a feed on both lines. As long as your CO2 injection gets the water column up to the target CO2 level before lights on, the water column will contain sufficient CO2 and both spray bars will distribute it.
Im just still concerned to set up a very strong left and right bias on the circulation without running dual everything, im gonna test out the top and bottom spraybar for a while, but if I dont keep it, I will probably cross inputs and outputs from the filters like @Zeus. suggested, that way it should all get mixed sufficiently to satisfy my worrying.

I will make custom spraybars for this at some point, but yesterday I got acute procrastinitis and decided to do it some other time 😅
In the meantime I put in some old spraybars I had, and I can confirm the full length bottom spray bar does indeed do a great job pulling water through the plantmass and hardscape at the back. It would almost be good enough to circulate the entire watercolumn this way, -if- I didnt take surface agitation into account.

Cons of this setup:
  • Spraybar takes up a little bit of real estate at the back, most problematic if you have a lot of stem plants, not so problematic for rhizome plants.
  • If you put the bar almost into the substrate, your inmates can kick sand into the spraybar, this could potentially reduce the output of the spraybar long term (if you have sand and lively inmates, that is 😁)

Pros: Really nice flow throughout
 

Shuster

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Two next to each other is so ugly though :what:


Thats a good point, I had forgotten I could do that Will write it down in case the knowledge falls out of my teflon coated brain again


This is what I would think too, but when I run the full top spray bar this area gets a lot of flow, so nothing settles there.


Another important consideration, thanks for this I might make the bottom spray bar one dimension bigger than the rest (20mm instead of 16mm), in my mind it should then tolerate a larger buildup of gunk inside without affecting the flow as much.


This is a good tip, I dont think I can use it with two canister filters, but it should work well for someone with just one


Im just still concerned to set up a very strong left and right bias on the circulation without running dual everything, im gonna test out the top and bottom spraybar for a while, but if I dont keep it, I will probably cross inputs and outputs from the filters like @Zeus. suggested, that way it should all get mixed sufficiently to satisfy my worrying.

I will make custom spraybars for this at some point, but yesterday I got acute procrastinitis and decided to do it some other time
In the meantime I put in some old spraybars I had, and I can confirm the full length bottom spray bar does indeed do a great job pulling water through the plantmass and hardscape at the back. It would almost be good enough to circulate the entire watercolumn this way, -if- I didnt take surface agitation into account.

Cons of this setup:
  • Spraybar takes up a little bit of real estate at the back, most problematic if you have a lot of stem plants, not so problematic for rhizome plants.
  • If you put the bar almost into the substrate, your inmates can kick sand into the spraybar, this could potentially reduce the output of the spraybar long term (if you have sand and lively inmates, that is )

Pros: Really nice flow throughout
Hi there,

I'm currently on same thoughts as you mate.

IMG-20211114-120002.jpg


However, the top spray bar will make the tank kind of no appropriate as aquascape or Holland scape... (Imo)

I've decided to put spray bar at the bottom back glad (transparent tube - AliExpress full with nice spray bar options)

And the other filter outlet will be directed to the front middle
(Tank 120*50*50 rimless 2 pumps 1550l/h
And 2300l/h)



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