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Sorry -yet another question about BBA

John P Coates

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2014
Messages
164
Location
Bracknell
I am beginning to see what I have identified as BBA growing mostly on the leaf edges of my slow-growing plants, rocks and driftwood. There is none on the substrate (JBL Manado). From doing some research on this site and elsewhere, it seems that growth of BBA (Audouinella) is caused by an imbalance of lighting and CO2.

The lighting in my tank varies from 30 - 100 PAR, measured at the topmost leaves of the plants. The CO2 level varies from 5 - 15 ppm from morning to night. My suspicion is that the CO2 level is too low. The CO2 is switched off at night by means of a solenoid valve. The light is on for 11 hours per day.

I don't particularly want to increase CO2 concentration so I'm wondering if the answer to the BBA problem would be to reduce the light intensity and/or the photoperiod. Or, do not switch the CO2 off at night and keep it at around 15 ppm.

Any advice would be appreciated.

JPC
 
11hrs is one hell of a photoperiod. 7 or 8 would be plenty
 
11hrs is one hell of a photoperiod. 7 or 8 would be plenty
Thanks, James. Really appreciate the reply.

Somewhere in the past, I've had the figure of 10 - 12 hours in my head. Out of interest, do you define the photoperiod as the time the lights are on full, i.e. excluding ramp-up and ramp-down?

JPC
 
All plants need a certain specific minimum amount of light to get going. Once you hit that it's all good, but don't forget there's the variance according to available light as well.

If your ramp up/down is not excessively long then I'd count it all. 7-8hrs is plenty. Just run it when it suits your viewing time best
 
Is there any particular reason for not wanting to raise the CO2 levels? As I'm sure you've read, 30ppm is preferable.
 
hey john, you are right in that BBA is caused by CO2 imbalance but saying that BBA is certainly more prone to appear when co2 is unstable.
I would suggest as the guys have said above...
Reduce the light, personally i like 6 when algae is around and that includes ramp up/down
Start a process of scrubbing the tank regularly, keeping it clean with help a lot
Spot dose the BBA with liquid carbon during WC, it will never go away even once the issue is fixed.
Increase your co2, and here is the important bit with bba, it must be lime green at lights on and stay that way until lights off.
Adding an SAE will stop it from reappearing, no guarantee but very effective.

Simple things like not maintaining consistent water level will cause an outbreak, if you let it go up and down the amount of de-gassing from surface agitation will also change meaning unstable co2 levels. Also if using a reactor, changing the filter output will effect co2 dissolution. whether that is cleaning a filter or turning it up down it makes a big difference.

Good luck
 
I have had more experience of BBA than I have ever wanted, and would agree with everything above. I have never had it in a non CO2 tank.
The conventional wisdom is that it is triggered by varying CO2 levels. In my tanks it seems to have occurred at moderate CO2 levels, and not when I get the levels up where they should be.
Although it seems common sense that any additional CO2 must be helpful, it does seem to me that intermediate levels (10-20ppm sort of thing) predispose the tank to BBA.
Maybe CO2 injection is all or nothing!

In addition to what others have suggested for treatment, if the BBA is widespread you could use the "1 2 Punch " treatment, which combines hydrogen peroxide and glutaraldehyde. It clears BBA from the whole tank very effectively and is safe to fish and shrimps (but not moss), but it does nothing about the underlying cause.
 
Is there any particular reason for not wanting to raise the CO2 levels? As I'm sure you've read, 30ppm is preferable.
Hi Henry,

I could increase the CO2 concentration as I have an excellent diffuser (Bazooka) but if the CO2 is then switched off at night, that will give rise to bigger variations than if I opt for figures in the 10 - 15 ppm range. Plus, many of my plants are growing rapidly anway. I have an H. Guaniensis (sp?) that has tripled in size in just three months.

JPC[DOUBLEPOST=1408280528][/DOUBLEPOST]
BBA is certainly more prone to appear when co2 is unstable.

Spot dose the BBA with liquid carbon during WC, it will never go away even once the issue is fixed.

Hi Iain,

Thanks for the feedback.

Just want to pick up on your points above.

(1) How stable does CO2 need to be? Should it be switched off at night? You would appear to do just that.

(2) Today, I have ordered some Seachem Flourish Excel.

JPC
 
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All plants need a certain specific minimum amount of light to get going.
Hi again James,

Can you give me some guidance on a minimum light level to aim for? I realize that different plants have different lighting needs but it would be helpful to have a ballpark figure. In PAR terms, are we talking 30, 50, 100 or what?

JPC[DOUBLEPOST=1408281594][/DOUBLEPOST]
Having it go off at night is a good idea because it saves money and there is a higher risk of gassing livestock at night when the plants also produce co2.

Algae and plants will only photosynthesise when light is available.
Hi again Iain,

I am fully aware of the points you have made. So, what seems to be important is keeping CO2 stable when the lights are on. You'll have to forgive me. I am a physicist, not a biologist.

JPC
 
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We are all learning here john, ask away.
Most important time is the first hour or so. If co2 isn't available when the plants 'wake up' then like a wife they will be in a bad mood all day!
I love it!

I guess it's a bit like that all-important first cup of coffee in the morning when we awake.

JPC
 
Hi again James,

Can you give me some guidance on a minimum light level to aim for? I realize that different plants have different lighting needs but it would be helpful to have a ballpark figure. In PAR terms, are we talking 30, 50, 100 or what?

JPC

I learnt this in a conversation with ceg. There is a minimum light a plant needs and it's measured in something other than PAR (which is a measure of light visible to us not plants). Maybe someone else can remember units?

The upshot of the conversation was that there are so many variables we simply can't accurately apply a comprehensive rule. I know some plants are low/med/high light plants and place them accordingly. Eg. an anubias might not do well 5cm from a monster led setup and a glosso carpet will struggle on deep shade - basically plant as in nature
 
that will give rise to bigger variations than if I opt for figures in the 10 - 15 ppm range

What kind of variations are you concerned with? CO2 levels, or pH? Neither of them are of any consequence apart from the effect on algae levels (CO2 level variations).
 
There is a minimum light a plant needs and it's measured in something other than PAR (which is a measure of light visible to us not plants).
Hi James,

PAR is photosynthetically active radiation, i.e. 'visible' to plants.

JPC[DOUBLEPOST=1408306475][/DOUBLEPOST]
What kind of variations are you concerned with? CO2 levels, or pH? Neither of them are of any consequence apart from the effect on algae levels (CO2 level variations).
Hi Henry,

Several people on this thread have commented that variations in CO2 concentration can contribute to BBA. And that's what I have discovered by trawling the internet. I don't believe anyone has mentioned pH. Your second sentence also supports the correlation between algae and CO2 fluctuations. When I was talking about variations, I was thinking more in terms of the variation in CO2 concentration between night and day but it makes sense to me now that this would possibly have no impact on the plants. This is well outside my area of expertise.

I feel that I now have the answers that I need to launch an attack on BBA.

JPC
 
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I'm not questioning any of that. I'm referring to what you said about the variations that will arise once the CO2 is switched off. You expressed concern that the "variation" would be greater at lights off if you raised CO2 to levels higher than 10-15ppm.

if the CO2 is then switched off at night, that will give rise to bigger variations than if I opt for figures in the 10 - 15 ppm range


What I'm asking is, where does your concern lie, and for what reason?
 
Hi James,

PAR is photosynthetically active radiation, i.e. 'visible' to plants.

JPC

Told you I wasn't reliable. Getting myself confused again :D

Here's what ceg said:

'Yes, it is a static figure, but it is a different figure for each plant. The minimum amount of light necessary for survival is a value called The Light Compensation Point (LCP). More info in the following threads:
LED Lighting | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Do t8 lights really degrade over time? | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Please look - good for plants ? | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Cheap ASDA Ikea etc light bulbs | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Cheers,'

LCP is what I was on about. Got a little confused while posting earlier as we had guests (was getting evil looks from Mrs O :mad:)
 
I'm not questioning any of that. I'm referring to what you said about the variations that will arise once the CO2 is switched off. You expressed concern that the "variation" would be greater at lights off if you raised CO2 to levels higher than 10-15ppm.




What I'm asking is, where does your concern lie, and for what reason?
Too late in the day. Hope to reply tomorrow.
 
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