Since when did E.I become a P.I.T.A

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Had reason to take a close look at my tank, sort of stand back and take an objective look, something is wrong. So anyway thought I'd get back to basics and look at my dosing. E.I, although the reason we see a lot of the brilliant scapes seen in here and a way to let the novice with high lights keep on top of their dosing regime so I can't take anything away from the concept, however, I'm not surprised an early adopter or the OCD among us who just wants a baseline figure to start with gets so confused.

Over time the original Tom Barr recipe seems to have been lost in translation through various calculators and sites and a lot of the original ones' Wets, Petalphile etc the sites seem to be down now leaving 2 or 3 options available. I think it's time for a definitive calculator for the OCD that works in grams. Most of these calculators appear to be out to the tune of about a third depending on which one you used last. Ok granted it's by no means exact science and was never intended to be so but it would be nice just to have one baseline figure. Which calculators do you use?

So, coming back to my own particular problem. Can someone clear this up for me regarding PO4 dosing and where I've possibly made a school boy error

I generally just use James planted tank Calculator for easiness. You have more control over the doses rather than getting told on one of the others but I think I may have been under dosing PO4 for some time. Putting the vague teaspoons aside.

Looking at UKAPS EI Page it advocates the following...

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

But then we got to another Calc and it has the following...

So all ready we've went from 20ppm to 30ppm (The third out I was talking about) Fair enough its a range so 20ppm through 30ppm is what we're on about but for the OCD is it one or the other? Also notice that it says 6.7ppm Nitrogen and 30ppm NO3. The starter is going to be looking for 3x6.7=20.1ppm doses and see that it doesn't add up to 30ppm I just think it needs clarification that 30ppm NO3 equates to 20ppm N. So in my earlier bit with the UKAPS version are we dealing in no3 dosing or n dosing? Which would explain the 20ppm.

Coming back to PO4, firstly we have UKAPS dosing at 1ppm 3x week 3ppm weekly, going back to other calcs we see 3ppm dosed 3x again P=2.9 ppm while PO4 =9ppm weekly. See where I'm coming from? It needs clarification on whether we're dealing with P or PO4, N or NO3.

In my instance according to the James calc I have been using for 100 ltr tank 30 grams of KNO3 in 500ml bottle dosed @ 20ml results in 7.36 ppm Nitrate putting you in the 20ppm bracket from UKAPS but that doesn't appear to be the case because again the result is one third out. Same goes for PO4.

I just think it needs pointed out the difference between the two when dealing with these calcs that the aim is to get...
30ppm of NO3 to achieve 20ppm of N
9ppm of PO4 to achieve 3ppm of P

Just don't think it would do any harm to clarify which we're dealing with is all I'm saying.

In my situation I've used James and find myself possibly dosing low when I think about it.

The two results are.
James PT
30 Grams KNO3 in 500ml bottle 20ml=7.36ppm dose 3x 20ppm weekly (clearly means N not NO3)
4 Grams PO4 in 500ml bottle 20ml =1.12ppm 3x 3.36ppm weekly (clearly means P not PO4)

Aquarium Calc
39 Grams KNO3 in 500ml bottle 20ml= 6.7ppm 3x 30ppm weekly (flip flops from N to NO3)
11 Grams PO4 in 500ml bottle 20ml= 2.9ppm 3x 9ppm weekly (flip flops from P to PO4)

That's before we even get onto Rotala Butterfly which then says...

"To reach your target of 1.3ppm PO4 you will need to add 5.96 grams (equivalent to 1 tsp + 1/8 tsp + 1/16 tsp ) of K2HPO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 20mL of that mix to your 100L aquarium to yield:
Element ppm/degree
PO4 1.3
P 0.42
K 1.07"

Then throws more confusion into the mix by saying dose 2 or 4 times per week! Is it two or is it 4, ones double the other. To the novice, no definite answer there without knowing the correlation between PO4 an P.

The reason I haven't used teaspoons is this just throws more unneeded ambiguity into the mix. For instance I used my scales to do an average of of 10x1/8th levelled teaspoons of pot sulph when looking at my K. Now according to James again..

"1/8th tspoon results in 2.86ppm of K"

Going off my average an 1/8th tspoon of pot sulphate is actually 1.09grams so would result in 4.89ppm of K

Then goes to say..

Using Dry Powders

40-80 litres
1/8 tsp KNO3
1/32 tsp KH2PO4
1/32 tsp TNC Trace (CSM+B)

80-150 litres
1/4 tsp KNO3
1/16 tsp KH2PO4
1/16 tsp TNC Trace (CSM+B)

150-225 litres
1/2 tsp KNO3
1/8 tsp KH2PO4
1/8 tsp TNC Trace (CSM+B)

225-350 litres
3/4 tsp KNO3
3/16 tsp KH2PO4
1/4 tsp TNC Trace (CSM+B)

350-500 litres
1 1/2 tsp KNO3
1/2 tsp KH2PO4
1/2 tsp TNC Trace (CSM+B)

With tank size differences of at times 100 ltrs, again raising questions of which tank am I. I guess I'm just saying it doesn't surprise me that something that was designed to be a simple method of dosing ferts in the tank raises so many questions in the forum through different translations, lack of uniformity, ambiguity and lack of clarification on whether we're dealing with NO3 or N or PO4 and P IMO.

Just saying.

 

[jesperl.dk]

The two results are.
James PT
30 Grams KNO3 in 500ml bottle 20ml=7.36ppm dose 3x 20ppm weekly (clearly means N not NO3)
4 Grams PO4 in 500ml bottle 20ml =1.12ppm 3x 3.36ppm weekly (clearly means P not PO4)

Aquarium Calc
39 Grams KNO3 in 500ml bottle 20ml= 6.7ppm 3x 30ppm weekly (flip flops from N to NO3)
11 Grams PO4 in 500ml bottle 20ml= 2.9ppm 3x 9ppm weekly (flip flops from P to PO4)

That's before we even get onto Rotala Butterfly which then says...

"To reach your target of 1.3ppm PO4 you will need to add 5.96 grams (equivalent to 1 tsp + 1/8 tsp + 1/16 tsp ) of K2HPO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 20mL of that mix to your 100L aquarium to yield:
Element ppm/degree
PO4 1.3
P 0.42
K 1.07"

Then throws more confusion into the mix by saying dose 2 or 4 times per week! Is it two or is it 4, ones double the other. To the novice, no definite answer there without knowing the correlation between PO4 an P.

Sorry to say it, but I think you have allowed you self to be more confused than you have to

James PT, Aquarium Calcl and Rotala, all uses ppm of NO3 and PO4 (not N and P).
And their calculations are all the same! Their targets are just a bit different - just as you quote. I would say that that the PO4 target from Aquarium Calc seems quite high, but all the other targets are common values.
The only unclear thing is that Rotala does their calculations based on 3x per week - the text is just a bit confusing.

I use my own calculator, well just because I can. It does exactly the same calculations as everybody else, there is only one way to calculate.
But your targets can be different of course.

Barr's original EI targets are:
NO3: 5-30 ppm/wk; PO4 1-3 ppm/wk; K 10-30 ppm/wk

Yes, quite a range there, probably just to challenge your OCD

 

[jesperl.dk]

Barr's original EI targets are:
NO3: 5-30 ppm/wk; PO4 1-3 ppm/wk; K 10-30 ppm/wk

To be just a bit more helpful, it seems to be quite common to dose in the upper end of the ranges. Remember this is based on 50% water change each week.

Also, you can dose a third of that three times a week or a fourth of that four time a week or a seventh each day - makes no differense.

 

[Ed.Junior]

Tom always said that these values are not set in stone. Every scenario will have to adapt it. I worried a lot about this in the beggining, but it is quite simple. Dose the high ranges to grt the best dose possible, then reduce to avoid waste.

Currently I dose 30ppm NO3, 10ppm PO4, 30ppm K, 1ppm Fe-EDTA. Thats for the whole week. This to total is split into three doses (e.g. 10ppm NO3 3x per week).

I have tested more, tested less, and I am happy with this. You have to try and test it for you.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Sorry to say it, but I think you have allowed you self to be more confused than you have to

Always the case with me, sometime I need to stop thinking.

James PT, Aquarium Calcl and Rotala, all uses ppm of NO3 and PO4 (not N and P).
And their calculations are all the same! Their targets are just a bit different - just as you quote. I would say that that the PO4 target from Aquarium Calc seems quite high, but all the other targets are common values.
The only unclear thing is that Rotala does their calculations based on 3x per week - the text is just a bit confusing.

Which is my point I think, each starts off with Tom's original recommendation, doesn't differentiate between NO3 or N, PO4 or P then goes on to set it's own I.E Jame's looks like it's somewhere in the middle. Just seems if you're in a position like I am and you just want to start at top of the shop where there is no chance of anything limiting as long as there's good flow and then looking to see whether you need to go up or down or possibly flow or co2 as a potential issue where you start depends on what you seen last.

Barr's original EI targets are:
NO3: 5-30 ppm/wk; PO4 1-3 ppm/wk; K 10-30 ppm/wk

Should that not be P 3-9 ppm/wk rather than PO4? That's where things got mixed up for me I think.

I've knocked this up for my own personal situation as a reference, not that it needed simplifying further. It's based on recommended KNO3/PO4/K levels. Does this look about right? Basically staying in green through yellow would still be deemed as in E.I margins other things like flow and massive/fast feeders like swords taken into account. Can be applied to any size tank @ 2ml per 10ltrs and only requires a syringe and set of scales and two easy to remember numbers 40g KNO3 and 10g KH2PO4

EI Dosing Final by AWB70, on Flickr

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

 

[tim]

Are you adding any magnesium?

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Yes, I add 2 teaspoons of Epsom Salts per week at WC. Going off my water report my water is extremely soft with no Nitrogen to speak of, about 1ppm of P and my KH sits at about 3.5 after WC rising to 4DGKh by the next change. I think seiryu stone adds my KH in the main. My gravel is inert Tropica Soil and I add nothing to elevate calcium and such.

I had noticed things were going wrong with algae (Journal is here) over the last few weeks which I had put down to possibly adding livestock and addition of some new impulse buy plants which had me digging round in the soil, retro fitting plants is a pain. This still might be the case but I also noticed because of the difference between P and PO4 there's a chance of me under dosing P and possibly all Nutrients. Just going to try at upper values for a month or so and see if I can eliminate that as a possible offender.

I don't know much about my lighting PAR values as such. It's an Up Aqua U series LED I think, could be P series. From what i can make out going off other reviews it's deemed as low to mid lighting.