Shoko after ten generations?

[Big G]

Evening all,

Read somewhere that Blue Dreams and Bloody Marys will revert back to Shoko after about ten generations if not culled regularly.

My understanding of genetics is pretty poor but if the tank becomes full of hybrids then the probability of the recessive gene throwing out Shoko’s must get higher I guess?

Any guidance greatly appreciated

cheers

BG

 

[ScareCrow]

I don't think that you can put a number on how many generations it will take as there are a lot of variables at play (diversity of the genepool, quality of the shrimp you start with etc). I've had shrimp go through a lot more than 10 generations and not show any reversion, if anything they improved even without culling but that was just luck. If you mix strains then you run the risk of creating some pretty dull coloured shrimp but at the same time you could get some interesting colours. Getting them to consistently breed true is where the real skill and determination comes in though. I read recently that inverts and fish don't suffer the effects of inbreeding depression in the same way that mammals do. This would make sense as in the wild some shrimp and fish species are limited to very small areas, with only limited access to other suitable habitat (I'm thinking killifish especially as that was what I was reading up on). Even knowing this I'd still try to cross out every so often to widen the genepool as eventually the effects of inbreeding will be seen (as evidenced by a lot of the fancier strains of guppies that have been intensively worked with).

 

[Big G]

That's a great answer. Thank you. I won't remove anything until I've had a word with LFS and see if he will want any. Couldn't bring myself to hurt the little guys. Would rather they reverted to shoko or native than that. Hoping they reach a natural saturation level, take few cold showers, kick back and wait for dead mens shoes, so to speak. We'll see.

Got some wonderful 'kids' from Steve Buce original stock. Everything from part carbons to what I would call a full navy colouring in both male & female. Some really 'painted' royal blues too. Really pop against the plants. Colony has taken a few knocks because of my mistakes on the learning curve but now seem solid and healthy.

All the best Scarecrow

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[Big G]

Forgot to ask. How often would you cross out from a new gene pool? Probably impossible to say? I've read that breeding can stop and that's a sign there's a need to diversify the colony.

Any other clues on timing?

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[ScareCrow]

I'm not sure of a particular interval and although I did buy them with the intention of selectively breeding them, I never got around to it. If I had I'd probably just add more stock if I found a really good example of a trait I was breeding for. For example if you want solid blue, remove anything that isn't solid blue and only add solid blues from another source. Adding stock might set you back a bit if you'd got a really good example of what you were trying for, or might help improve on what you've got. Without having a record of bloodlines it's all trial and error though.
If your LFS won't take them, you could sell them privately. I used gumtree when I sold mine off but apparently there's a lot of groups on Facebook.

 

[Big G]

I'm not sure of a particular interval and although I did buy them with the intention of selectively breeding them, I never got around to it. If I had I'd probably just add more stock if I found a really good example of a trait I was breeding for. For example if you want solid blue, remove anything that isn't solid blue and only add solid blues from another source. Adding stock might set you back a bit if you'd got a really good example of what you were trying for, or might help improve on what you've got. Without having a record of bloodlines it's all trial and error though.
If your LFS won't take them, you could sell them privately. I used gumtree when I sold mine off but apparently there's a lot of groups on Facebook.

Cheers Scarecrow. Do you still have a colony descended from those you mention and if so/ if you didn’t selectively breed them, did they remain ‘of type’ i.e. blue, red etc. (within a range of shades, markings and opacities)?
I guess I’m not especially fussed about protecting or targeting a particular colour trait , they’re all fantastic little creatures ; it’s more a question of protecting/ not diluting all the hard work already done to make them what they are.

Pretty sure my LFS will be interested. They knock out the odd bunch of Cherrys (quite a classic old - school LFS but very nicely run) and I’ll be giving them away so pure profit minus reputation risk I guess. I’m not using RO (unless I have to up my game - see later) and we’ll share a water source so easier acclimation etc. I’ve got seed shrimp/ostrocods but will be clear about that if they want them. I can probably water change/syphon them off a holding jar (don’t think they breed on shrimp)

If they don’t want them I’ll look at another tank for culls. Useful as a bailout tank too. (Any excuse to make another ‘scape). Thinking about it I’m almost as curious to test reversion as I am about retaining the colour morphs. That suggests two setups. Splitting the colony might spread the gene pool (or slow down the genetic concentration) and the less highly bred tank might throw up the odd outlier which can be re-integrated into the higher morph tank. As you say, it’s trial and error without knowing blood lines and heritage. We’ll see.

All of this could be academic anyway as shrimp have temporarily stopped breeding as, because of the way my tank is configured, there’s a temperature lag from the heater to the living chamber that the onset of winter has exacerbated and prolonged. Average temps. are about 4 c lower than spring and 6 or 7 below summer and can fluctuate about 2.5c over a 24hr cycle. That’s my current theory anyway. I’ll find a good solution that doesn’t involve changing the rig too much, sooner or later, I’m sure.

Thanks once again👍

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[ScareCrow]

Hi @Big G

Sadly I no longer have shrimp, the fish I have would eat them. Although I didn't selectively breed them I found that they became more blue and had more of a solid colour. Originally they were quite dull and a lot of the females had a stripe down their back (I forget the term for it). I was intending to breed out the stripe but they did it for me (see attached picture of shrimp just before I sold them).
I found mine bred best when I removed the filter and just relied on plants for filtration. I had a low tech setup, with a huge ball of Leptodictyum riparium 'stringy moss' and phothos Epipremnum aureum growing emersed. I also noticed that the shrimp were a lot more visible with the filter removed. Possibly because they didn't have to battle against the flow. I don't know, it wasn't a pretty tank though and I wouldn't recommend it on a relatively new tank or a tank with only a few plants. Plant mass is a must and always better to have a filter to fall back on just in case.

 

[Big G]

Wow . Just wow.

That's a fantastic shrimp !
I've included a picture of my Blue tank as is.
It's a Fluval Spec V mk2. The filtration and pump are in chambers seperate from the main enclosure. The oxydator is fairly new. Just experimenting with it. Mote useful to help release excess heat in summer as to provide oxygen. Does give me a few more options with flow as well.

Salvinia and Frogbit are healthy and propogate well.

Even the Pinitifada seems pretty happy.

Intetesting about your colony breeding in higher traits. I'll be cautious therefore.

My residual nitrates are quite high (35-40ppm from the tap) and rigging a Porthos or similar might help draw off some of that. They bred in that all summer though. I'll pursue the temp. theory and take if from there. Don't want to push peak temp past 74f when trying to offset midnight lows. One of the problems with a 19l tank with 2l filter & heater chamber.
I've moved the heater to the main chamber so it's citculating in the water column rather than stuck in a seperate chamber simply heating a small bit of water and bleeding a bit of that into the water column.

Thanks for sharing that amazing picture.

All the best

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[ScareCrow]

Thanks @Big G your tank looks a lot better than my shrimp tank did!
My nitrates are also quite high from the tap, from memory the water report for my area averaged 30ppm. That was the reason I started looking at plants that could use their aerial advantage and act as a nutrient export. I found Pothos to be easiest. I seem to struggle with floating plants, other than duckweed but see your salvinia and frogbit are doing well.
I think for neocaridina consistency is key. They're not overly fussy on specific water parameters although I believe they struggle towards the softer and acidic end. My pH is 7.8 with a tds of around 300ppm so that wasn't a concern for me.
I found a couple more pictures. From memory there were a few blues like the picture above but the majority of them were very dark almost black like the attached. I prefer the lighter blue but the really dark ones had a nice sheen, so both were nice in their own way.

 

[Big G]

Again, just stunning shrimp. Amazing and such different variations but such high opacity. Looks like ot was a really interesting and diverse colony.
The macro work is excellent.

I really must get some sort of magnifying glass or macro viewer. I'm missing out on so much . My big squeeze is fujifilm x100 v which has a fixed 28mm with 2/3rd cc'd. Great from almost everything and the leaf shutter is silky smooth.....apart from macro work. Price of a fixed lens slr.

Very kind of you to say about tank. It's not everyones taste. First aquascaping tank and I was too focussed on hardscape but I'm slowly learning. and built up the biomass. It's getting there. Not a path I'll be recommending to fellow UKAPS ers. I certainly couldn't have stuck with this without UKAPS.

Totally agree about neo's. They're hardy little critters and very forgiving. They've let me know when I've messed up badly. Consistency is, as you say, the key. I'm a big fan of both Marks on the Youtube shrimp circuit.
I've found like most beginners perhaps that in the rush to hear I'm sometimes not actually listening. Lessons are therefore relearned from events rather than absorbing theory. Bless the little critters for being so resilient under my fumbling if well-intentioned hands. Same with the plants.

Have a peaceful and safe christmas Scarecrow and all fellow UKAPS.

Shout out to mods. and 'lifers' too.

Thank you.

Best wishes
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