gareth777
Member
looking good been watching this one with interest
-
You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up
Round Two
- Thread starter Wisey
- Start date
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
After upping the light I was away for a few days at the weekend. Came back to find a slight substrate slip at the back right corner which had caused a couple of bits of the Pogo to float. Topped up the substrate and re-planted, but apart from that everything else looked good. Quite a lot of the Pogo stems are starting to display some new growth now, so that's good news. As for the Alternanthera, that has the straggly old leaves still, I have removed some but generally just left it to get on with it and most plants are just starting to show a brand new pair of leaves, so it looks like that is also responding to the light and starting to get going.
I definitely need to make a decision on what will go at the front left, tempted to have another go with Monte Carlo. I think getting something planted there will help reduce the substrate moving forwards in that area. I'm finding it a bit of a nightmare to keep the sand area clean at the moment, but hope once plants get more established that they should protect the substrate from the flow and their roots should help keep things in place. I guess I will always have to clean that area up, but hopefully it will get a bit more manageable in time.
I definitely need to make a decision on what will go at the front left, tempted to have another go with Monte Carlo. I think getting something planted there will help reduce the substrate moving forwards in that area. I'm finding it a bit of a nightmare to keep the sand area clean at the moment, but hope once plants get more established that they should protect the substrate from the flow and their roots should help keep things in place. I guess I will always have to clean that area up, but hopefully it will get a bit more manageable in time.
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
I'm not at all convinced with the violet style outflow pipe and my current flow configuration, so some thought is going in to this just now.
I picked the violet as I wanted the more demanding plants lower down on the left hand side to get good flow and CO2, but its causing a lot of substrate movement which is a real PITA. In an attempt to try and stop it pushing substrate forwards, I angled the pipe so it was pointing slightly towards the back of the tank instead of straight at the opposite side. This has helped to some extent, but water is hitting the rock behind the Alternanthera, rebounding and starting to dig a channel in the substrate between the Alternanthera and the stone. It's also slowly pushing substrate forwards through the Alternanthera.
To try and reduce these issues I have reduced the filter flow, but worry about getting problems with lack of flow in other areas. I notice now that I can drop food down the front glass on to the sand and there appears to be almost no flow at all across the front of the tank, which I am sure could cause issues with stagnation down the line. I do appear to get a green DC all around the tank, so I think I am getting good levels of CO2 dissolved in to the water and the water is getting moved around, especially seeing as the skimmer helps to push water from left to right across the back glass, but I had to reduce the power of that too as it was putting too much pressure on the stems at the back right.
I'm kinda tied to having the inflow and outflow pipes on the right as that is the side of the cabinet that I fitted the desk grommets in to get the pipes out of the side rather than the back. I do see with the current setup that flow hits the far side and goes upwards then I can see the CO2 bubbles start to come back towards the right higher up, but not powerful enough to get all the way back over the tank.
I'm considering switching to a standard lilly style pipe to see if the flow will hit the far side higher up and flow down the side glass to the plants that need the CO2 then back across the substrate towards the right hand side. I guess another option would be to revert to the old spraybar, but rather than having it from the back to the front, I could set that up on the right hand side, push flow over the surface from right to left, down the left side glass and back over the substrate that way. I'm reluctant to get the nasty plastic spraybar back in there, but could test with the plastic one then get one of the smaller glass ones if it works.
Thoughts and opinions appreciated please! Any ideas?
I picked the violet as I wanted the more demanding plants lower down on the left hand side to get good flow and CO2, but its causing a lot of substrate movement which is a real PITA. In an attempt to try and stop it pushing substrate forwards, I angled the pipe so it was pointing slightly towards the back of the tank instead of straight at the opposite side. This has helped to some extent, but water is hitting the rock behind the Alternanthera, rebounding and starting to dig a channel in the substrate between the Alternanthera and the stone. It's also slowly pushing substrate forwards through the Alternanthera.
To try and reduce these issues I have reduced the filter flow, but worry about getting problems with lack of flow in other areas. I notice now that I can drop food down the front glass on to the sand and there appears to be almost no flow at all across the front of the tank, which I am sure could cause issues with stagnation down the line. I do appear to get a green DC all around the tank, so I think I am getting good levels of CO2 dissolved in to the water and the water is getting moved around, especially seeing as the skimmer helps to push water from left to right across the back glass, but I had to reduce the power of that too as it was putting too much pressure on the stems at the back right.
I'm kinda tied to having the inflow and outflow pipes on the right as that is the side of the cabinet that I fitted the desk grommets in to get the pipes out of the side rather than the back. I do see with the current setup that flow hits the far side and goes upwards then I can see the CO2 bubbles start to come back towards the right higher up, but not powerful enough to get all the way back over the tank.
I'm considering switching to a standard lilly style pipe to see if the flow will hit the far side higher up and flow down the side glass to the plants that need the CO2 then back across the substrate towards the right hand side. I guess another option would be to revert to the old spraybar, but rather than having it from the back to the front, I could set that up on the right hand side, push flow over the surface from right to left, down the left side glass and back over the substrate that way. I'm reluctant to get the nasty plastic spraybar back in there, but could test with the plastic one then get one of the smaller glass ones if it works.
Thoughts and opinions appreciated please! Any ideas?
I don't use glass pipes (too fragile 
) so this is just observation
- your outlet is far too low in the water, the upper glass edge should be at/near water surface
(disclaimer: these tanks were set up by the ADA distributor or by shop staff trained by same)
- another factor in these outlets is that not so obvious design (flaws?) can greatly affect flow pattern
I'd be inclined to stay with the side flow rather than front to back
Try angling the flow towards the front left glass, but not into the actual corner & see what that does ... you could start at the midline & then move towards the left corner - I'd be inclined to play with flow angles rather than reducing flow (so as not to disturb substrate)
You might also change the positions of inlet/outlet - sand should be more resistant to flow disturbance (or at least, won't kick up plants)
Further disclaimer, I like spray bars - though the ugly plastic, not so much 
) so this is just observation- your outlet is far too low in the water, the upper glass edge should be at/near water surface
(disclaimer: these tanks were set up by the ADA distributor or by shop staff trained by same)
- another factor in these outlets is that not so obvious design (flaws?) can greatly affect flow pattern
I'd be inclined to stay with the side flow rather than front to back
Try angling the flow towards the front left glass, but not into the actual corner & see what that does ... you could start at the midline & then move towards the left corner - I'd be inclined to play with flow angles rather than reducing flow (so as not to disturb substrate)
You might also change the positions of inlet/outlet - sand should be more resistant to flow disturbance (or at least, won't kick up plants)
Further disclaimer, I like spray bars
- though the ugly plastic, not so much I MC a lot (it's like the ground cover version of M umbrosum ) - when you plant, just go with the (almost) individual stems set quite deep in the substrate (they'll also be less likely to float), you can also stash some "clumps" amongst the rock line to help control substrate movement (shrimp & cories are good at defeating any efforts of yours to maintain soil-free-sand
)- this way you also get to compare growth
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
My 7 day schedule is out of sync, so my "Sunday" is tonight. I'll have a play around with things while doing my water change. I did just try lifting the pipe almost to the surface and it helps. Slight snag in that my cover does not fit with the violet higher, but just eased to the side a bit for now. I also noticed the violet was pointing down a little, the pressure of the stiff hose combined with only having one suction cup means the pipe is not actually sitting straight, the hose is forcing it down at an angle. Just wedged a matchbox in the gap to make it sit vertical and that's helped too.
I'll post again, prob with some pics, after the cleanup.
I'll post again, prob with some pics, after the cleanup.
parotet
Member
Yup, I had the same problem. It is a pain when you have cosmetic sand, not that much with a densely planted carpet in the foreground. In my case a managed to solve the problem with a rock tied with moss in the critical area.
I am worried about having problems in the longterm with such solution.
Once again exactly what I did a few days after buying my violet lily pipe... my other problem was that it was too noisy at night (I raise the outflow for breaking the surface).
However, I think it is a good piece of equipment, probably interesting for other layouts with foreground densely planted, Iwagumi type and/or longer tanks.
Jordi
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
I followed you advice, alto. The violet has been raised and my matchbox trick keeps it upright. Seems to be less flow directly at the substrate now, but we will see overnight.
I was trying to thin out the Ceratopteris Thalictroides, but my attention just uprooted it. I therefore took the opportunity to separate in to three pieces as per the Tropica video and replanted. It's better spread now and I put the smaller piece right behind the wood hoping it will fill in where the Lim. Sess. didn't make it.
As there was some substrate disturbance I decided to do a larger water change, but too the chance to make another substrate disturbing change. There was a smaller bit of bogwood behind the piece that runs to the front left corner. Theory was it would hold back substrate, the reality was it didn't, it just meant very shallow substrate that can't be planted in. I therefore removed it, syphoned put the dust cloud, topped up the substrate and that area is ready for some Monte Carlo.
You can definitely see some growth on the Pogo now, so that is encouraging.
I was trying to thin out the Ceratopteris Thalictroides, but my attention just uprooted it. I therefore took the opportunity to separate in to three pieces as per the Tropica video and replanted. It's better spread now and I put the smaller piece right behind the wood hoping it will fill in where the Lim. Sess. didn't make it.
As there was some substrate disturbance I decided to do a larger water change, but too the chance to make another substrate disturbing change. There was a smaller bit of bogwood behind the piece that runs to the front left corner. Theory was it would hold back substrate, the reality was it didn't, it just meant very shallow substrate that can't be planted in. I therefore removed it, syphoned put the dust cloud, topped up the substrate and that area is ready for some Monte Carlo.
You can definitely see some growth on the Pogo now, so that is encouraging.
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
I did have a go at moving the outflow violet pipe further towards the front, but as my desk grommets are placed towards the back this put strain on the hose which made the violet lean at an angle. I tried a few options, but in the end reverted to how they were but higher and straighter. I can see an improvement already so fingers crossed.
Here is a quick FTS...
I removed quite a lot of damaged leaves from the Ech. Quadricostatus, so that's thinned out. Trying to make sure the ottos are well fed, hence the yellow bell pepper in there. Noticed some damage to the Cerstopteris tonight too! At least they seem to be leaving the Alternanthera alone just now.
Here is a quick FTS...
I removed quite a lot of damaged leaves from the Ech. Quadricostatus, so that's thinned out. Trying to make sure the ottos are well fed, hence the yellow bell pepper in there. Noticed some damage to the Cerstopteris tonight too! At least they seem to be leaving the Alternanthera alone just now.
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
I added blanched courgette last night and some of the Ottos were straight on it. I did used to feed courgette quite a lot but haven't recently. I do see them go to the bell pepper at night, but maybe they don't like it as much as the courgette and have therefore been feeding on my plants. I need to improve their diet and try to keep them full, I just don't want to feed them too full so they don't eat algae (not that I have any yet...).
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
I went to order some MC yesterday, but Aqua Essentials were out of stock. I went to Aquarium Gardens, but then realised I had missed the cut off for shipment yesterday and would therefore not get it before the bank holiday weekend. I'm going to place that order next week instead.
I'm a little concerned that I have some sort of water quality issue. The FTS picture above after the work the other day has water that is perfectly clear. When I got home last night, the clarity of the water was not quite the same. There was a lot of CO2 going in, so I thought that might be it, but after the CO2 was off for half an hour and the micro bubbles had mostly gone, there appeared to be a slight clarity issue still. It's not milky white water, so not a big bacteria bloom (yet), it's hard to describe. I did do a big filter clean when I rescaped, I cleaned the pre-filter and fine filter in tap water, but I was careful to just rinse the pan scrubbers from the first basket in tank water and the same for the Alfagrog in the second basket, just a quick swish up and down in tank water to remove some loose detritus. It's been almost 4 weeks since I rescaped though, so I would have expected to see an issue sooner if I had killed off too much filter bacteria.
I'll have to see how it looks when I get home this evening. It was hard to see anything at all wrong with the lights off this morning. If its still not looking right tonight I will do another water change and dose some extra Prime at the same time.
I'm a little concerned that I have some sort of water quality issue. The FTS picture above after the work the other day has water that is perfectly clear. When I got home last night, the clarity of the water was not quite the same. There was a lot of CO2 going in, so I thought that might be it, but after the CO2 was off for half an hour and the micro bubbles had mostly gone, there appeared to be a slight clarity issue still. It's not milky white water, so not a big bacteria bloom (yet), it's hard to describe. I did do a big filter clean when I rescaped, I cleaned the pre-filter and fine filter in tap water, but I was careful to just rinse the pan scrubbers from the first basket in tank water and the same for the Alfagrog in the second basket, just a quick swish up and down in tank water to remove some loose detritus. It's been almost 4 weeks since I rescaped though, so I would have expected to see an issue sooner if I had killed off too much filter bacteria.
I'll have to see how it looks when I get home this evening. It was hard to see anything at all wrong with the lights off this morning. If its still not looking right tonight I will do another water change and dose some extra Prime at the same time.
Looks good
this sounds a bit like "green water" -which may actually appear green to brown if you collect "stuff" on a white cloth
It generally sorts itself out & doesn't compromise plants or livestock until you get something that is densely opaque (think pea soup quality) - at this stage it will tend to sequester oxygen from water (at possible expense of livestock) & reduce light/nutrition to plants.
You can try increased water changes or just stick with usual water change schedule - if you've a UV handy, throw this on the tank (but I'd not go out & purchase)
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
I have just done a google image search for "bacteria bloom" and what I am seeing is similar to some of the pics you see there, but nowhere near as white as those. It definitely has a white tint to it rather than green though. I don't have UV unfortunately.
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
Well the water clarity issue sorted itself out very quickly without any intervention, so not sure what happened there, but all seems well for the time being.
I have placed an order with Aquarium Gardens this morning. They are closed for the bank holiday today, but all being well my order will be shipped tomorrow and I should have it on Wednesday. I can then do a water change on Wednesday evening and plant up my new Monte Carlo. I have ordered two pots of Hortilab Tissue Culture plants. I guess one pot would have been sufficient, but I am impatient, so figured I would try and get it well planted from the start.
I also have some S. Repens in the propagator and it is growing well. It's been trimmed and I have double the number of stems after replanting tops in the last month, so I am tempted to see if I can fit some of that in around the rocks as its a lovely plant and seems a shame for it to just sit there in the propagator.
I may well see if I can condense the Alternanthera in to a slightly more compact grouping by moving a few of the stems so that I have a little space to bring the Monte Carlo part the way across in front of it. I'm pleased to say that this plant does seem to be doing much better since the increase in light, two new sets of leaves on each stem now and they are redder than the original leaves. It's not the intense red that I would like to see eventually, but at least I am seeing growth and it is not green.
I'm seeing some melt or damage on some parts of the Ceratopteris Thalictroides, not sure what the issue is there, but I did notice that the area affected mainly appears to be underneath where the ferts are dosed and I wonder if that could be an issue. I might try moving the fert tubes further forwards if I continue to get issues with that plant.
I have placed an order with Aquarium Gardens this morning. They are closed for the bank holiday today, but all being well my order will be shipped tomorrow and I should have it on Wednesday. I can then do a water change on Wednesday evening and plant up my new Monte Carlo. I have ordered two pots of Hortilab Tissue Culture plants. I guess one pot would have been sufficient, but I am impatient, so figured I would try and get it well planted from the start.
I also have some S. Repens in the propagator and it is growing well. It's been trimmed and I have double the number of stems after replanting tops in the last month, so I am tempted to see if I can fit some of that in around the rocks as its a lovely plant and seems a shame for it to just sit there in the propagator.
I may well see if I can condense the Alternanthera in to a slightly more compact grouping by moving a few of the stems so that I have a little space to bring the Monte Carlo part the way across in front of it. I'm pleased to say that this plant does seem to be doing much better since the increase in light, two new sets of leaves on each stem now and they are redder than the original leaves. It's not the intense red that I would like to see eventually, but at least I am seeing growth and it is not green.
I'm seeing some melt or damage on some parts of the Ceratopteris Thalictroides, not sure what the issue is there, but I did notice that the area affected mainly appears to be underneath where the ferts are dosed and I wonder if that could be an issue. I might try moving the fert tubes further forwards if I continue to get issues with that plant.
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
I have had confirmation that my Aquarium Gardens order will be delivered today, so as planned I will drain off about 75% of the water this evening, plant up the MC and refill the aquarium. It's actually come at a good time as I have some detritus in the tank that needs to be syphoned off. I fed a couple of algae wafers to try and stop the Amanos eating the plants, but this resulted in a bit of a mess in the tank last night. There was quite a lot of it spread over the sand at the front, more swirling around in the water column and as the Corys rooted around in the sand it was sending more and more up in to the water.
This made me realise that flow in the tank is just not what it needs to be right now. The algae wafer particles were just swirling round and round in the left two thirds of the tank, but hardly any of it was getting to the right hand side where the inflow for the filter is located. Therefore, it was just circulating and not getting removed from the aquarium. I have been trying to use the skimmer at the back right to supplement flow across the back of the tank and this does help, but with such a small outflow and the flow reducing once you get a day or two of mulm in the sponge, it's not very effective.
I have therefore placed an order with Aqua Essentials this morning so I can try and address the flow. When I was attempting to change the location of inflow and outflow, the problem I had was I was restricted by my hose length. I also had the restriction that the holes I cut in the side of the tank suited the previous setup and are both towards the back right. The rigidity of the hose that I had bought from eBay meant that I could not get the pipes to stay upright due to the hose pressure. I therefore ordered 6 metres of the superfish 16/22 hose from Aqua Essentials to have a try with this. Some of the reviews say it was very flexible, the downside being that it can kink, but hopefully I can make this work.
I also ordered a Hydor Koralia 900lph circulation pump. I like the sound of this, a good boost to my flow, but a diffused flow so hoping it does not blast things around too much. I'm not sure on the placement of this yet, it will require some experimentation at the weekend (if it arrives in time). I have a couple of theories at the moment, I'm going to take alto's advice of trying the filter outflow pipe further forward on the right hand side so that I get flow across the front of the tank then it should turn over the left end towards the back. With the violet directing the flow downwards, I may put the Koralia next to the outflow violet to boost its flow, but have it more directed horizontally over the tank above the flow from the outflow. My other theory is that I could replace the skimmer at the back left with the Koralia to try and boost the flow around the tank as it comes round that left hand side. If I do that, I may keep the skimmer in the same place to contribute to this flow, or possible move the skimmer over to the right side to increase flow from the outflow. Hopefully with one of these methods I can get a good circular flow going around the whole tank.
Although I do seem to have good CO2 levels in the lower flow right hand side of the tank, I am not certain I am getting good ferts distribution. The dosing pump dumps the ferts in just behind the violet pipe at the moment, but one thing I have noticed when dropping some flake food in there is that there is very little flow in this area, the violet draws in water from around and above as the flow comes out, but not from behind. When I alter the flow with my new Koralia and hose I will have a re-think on where I introduce the ferts to ensure they get picked up and distributed.
This made me realise that flow in the tank is just not what it needs to be right now. The algae wafer particles were just swirling round and round in the left two thirds of the tank, but hardly any of it was getting to the right hand side where the inflow for the filter is located. Therefore, it was just circulating and not getting removed from the aquarium. I have been trying to use the skimmer at the back right to supplement flow across the back of the tank and this does help, but with such a small outflow and the flow reducing once you get a day or two of mulm in the sponge, it's not very effective.
I have therefore placed an order with Aqua Essentials this morning so I can try and address the flow. When I was attempting to change the location of inflow and outflow, the problem I had was I was restricted by my hose length. I also had the restriction that the holes I cut in the side of the tank suited the previous setup and are both towards the back right. The rigidity of the hose that I had bought from eBay meant that I could not get the pipes to stay upright due to the hose pressure. I therefore ordered 6 metres of the superfish 16/22 hose from Aqua Essentials to have a try with this. Some of the reviews say it was very flexible, the downside being that it can kink, but hopefully I can make this work.
I also ordered a Hydor Koralia 900lph circulation pump. I like the sound of this, a good boost to my flow, but a diffused flow so hoping it does not blast things around too much. I'm not sure on the placement of this yet, it will require some experimentation at the weekend (if it arrives in time). I have a couple of theories at the moment, I'm going to take alto's advice of trying the filter outflow pipe further forward on the right hand side so that I get flow across the front of the tank then it should turn over the left end towards the back. With the violet directing the flow downwards, I may put the Koralia next to the outflow violet to boost its flow, but have it more directed horizontally over the tank above the flow from the outflow. My other theory is that I could replace the skimmer at the back left with the Koralia to try and boost the flow around the tank as it comes round that left hand side. If I do that, I may keep the skimmer in the same place to contribute to this flow, or possible move the skimmer over to the right side to increase flow from the outflow. Hopefully with one of these methods I can get a good circular flow going around the whole tank.
Although I do seem to have good CO2 levels in the lower flow right hand side of the tank, I am not certain I am getting good ferts distribution. The dosing pump dumps the ferts in just behind the violet pipe at the moment, but one thing I have noticed when dropping some flake food in there is that there is very little flow in this area, the violet draws in water from around and above as the flow comes out, but not from behind. When I alter the flow with my new Koralia and hose I will have a re-think on where I introduce the ferts to ensure they get picked up and distributed.
Wisey
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 1,062
As I expected one cup of MC would have been enough, but it didn't seem worth the postage! I put some in the propagator to see if it will root and planted fairly heavily in the aquarium.
While in there I removed about 90% of the old damaged leaves from the Alternanthera, it's looking better now, redder and bigger.
You can see both here...
The MC is planted deep enough that the flow is not an issue. I can see CO2 flowing over it, so hopefully it takes hold. I just need the bloody Corys to keep out of it. More chance of winning the lottery I think!
While in there I removed about 90% of the old damaged leaves from the Alternanthera, it's looking better now, redder and bigger.
You can see both here...
The MC is planted deep enough that the flow is not an issue. I can see CO2 flowing over it, so hopefully it takes hold. I just need the bloody Corys to keep out of it. More chance of winning the lottery I think!
