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Request for feedback on stocking of large tank: tank 2 8x4x22 (ft,ft,inch) ~approx 450 gallon

anewbie

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This is the second aquarium - dimension are 8 ft x 4ft x 22ft.
Target water condition is kh 1 tds 40-50 gh 1-2:
8-10 winemilleri geo
2 apistogramma lineata or pebas
4 pseudohemiodon sp peru
4 to 6 GBR
16 to 20 sterbai
some random plecos (L204,L397,various bn maybe L204 depends what is for sale and what i have left over)
6 picus smudge spot catfish
20-30 Hemiodus gracilis (not a great fit as they prefer cooler temp; but having problem finding a decent schooling fish for the top that (a) likes 82-84 and (b) large enough to not be eaten by geo.
 

tiger15

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You have indeed a huge tank for home aquarium. Nothing wrong with small fish in big tank if you plan to plant scape it. Your tentative inhabitants appistogramma and GBR are dwarf cichlid popular in nano / small aquarium but seem to be a waste of large space that can fit bigger fish. Your Geo is a large cichlid and if you worry it will eat small schoolers, then you should also worry about housing it with dwarf cichlid. IME, Geo are non predatory and small fish are not endangered. However, Geo are earth eater and will uproot substrate rooted plants so you are limiting to epiphytes and potted plants if you plan to have Geo. Since your tank temp is in warm 80s, large angel or discus fish will do well and are plant friendly. There are many descent size schoolers/ shoaler such as Tiger barb, Congo, diamond and bleeding heart tetra that do well with big fish. I’ve seen Hemiodus gracilis in warm Amazonian tank and should be fine. For top swimmer, pink tail Chalceus is surface hugging, so are pearl, blue and other guarami but they are loner, not schooler. I keep many of the fish I recommended to you in my 75 to 125 gal, small compared to yours, but still above average home aquarium.
 

Conort2

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This is the second aquarium - dimension are 8 ft x 4ft x 22ft.
Target water condition is kh 1 tds 40-50 gh 1-2:
8-10 winemilleri geo
2 apistogramma lineata or pebas
4 pseudohemiodon sp peru
4 to 6 GBR
16 to 20 sterbai
some random plecos (L204,L397,various bn maybe L204 depends what is for sale and what i have left over)
6 picus smudge spot catfish
20-30 Hemiodus gracilis (not a great fit as they prefer cooler temp; but having problem finding a decent schooling fish for the top that (a) likes 82-84 and (b) large enough to not be eaten by geo.
Sounds good however the dwarf cichlids may struggle to compete. There is also a possibility they may get eaten by the geophagus, they’re not a predatory fish but they get pretty big and fish will eat whatever can fit in their mouth.

I’d probably go for something abit larger like Krobia, laetercara or if you can find them my favourites which are dwarf pike cichlids. Really interesting fish and harmless with anything that can’t fit in their mouths. Angelfish are always a good option too or stuff like Severums and chocolate cichlids if you’re not too fussed about plants.

Hemiodus gracilis will be fine in that temperature although all the species you’ve mentioned won’t mind it abit cooler if you leave out the rams which I think you should due to reasons mentioned earlier.

Any of the other larger bodied tetras will also work fine like bleeding hearts, Colombian, lemon, wadai, rosy, etc. The choice now with all the new species of tetra being imported and bred is massive.

Cheers
 

anewbie

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Sounds good however the dwarf cichlids may struggle to compete. There is also a possibility they may get eaten by the geophagus, they’re not a predatory fish but they get pretty big and fish will eat whatever can fit in their mouth.

I’d probably go for something abit larger like Krobia, laetercara or if you can find them my favourites which are dwarf pike cichlids. Really interesting fish and harmless with anything that can’t fit in their mouths. Angelfish are always a good option too or stuff like Severums and chocolate cichlids if you’re not too fussed about plants.

Hemiodus gracilis will be fine in that temperature although all the species you’ve mentioned won’t mind it abit cooler if you leave out the rams which I think you should due to reasons mentioned earlier.

Any of the other larger bodied tetras will also work fine like bleeding hearts, Colombian, lemon, wadai, rosy, etc. The choice now with all the new species of tetra being imported and bred is massive.

Cheers
One thing that confuses me is why the GEO would eat rams but not rosy or serape tetra which are much smaller ? Other than that i could move some of the larger cichlid from tank 1 to tank 2; drop the rams (though they are a favorite of mine) and add some laetacara dorsigera or araguaiae and drop the temp to 78.
 

Conort2

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One thing that confuses me is why the GEO would eat rams but not rosy or serape tetra which are much smaller ? Other than that i could move some of the larger cichlid from tank 1 to tank 2; drop the rams (though they are a favorite of mine) and add some laetacara dorsigera or araguaiae and drop the temp to 78.
Sorry should’ve been clearer, they’ll eat female apistogramma not rams. Rams I think will be outcompeted/intimidated due to the size of the geophagus. Full grown winellmeri are a big fish. You’ve also have pictus catfish which are extremely greedy fast fish, again another that May outcompete the dwarf cichlids. It is a massive tank so could be possible. I just feel dwarf cichlids do best when they’re the ‘dominant’ species and can really show their best behaviour. If you went with a smaller geophagus species I think the dwarfs would be doable.

Cheers
 

tiger15

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One thing that confuses me is why the GEO would eat rams but not rosy or serape tetra which are much smaller ? Other than that i could move some of the larger cichlid from tank 1 to tank 2; drop the rams (though they are a favorite of mine) and add some laetacara dorsigera or araguaiae and drop the temp to 78.
Tetra are fast, Rams are slow. Diamond, bleeding heart or Columbia tetra grow as large as male Ram. Serpae and rosy are a bit too small to be with Geo. I like Ram too but they are delicate to keep even without powerful competitors, and will certainly be bullied in open water. You have better chance to go with Kribensis and many Tanganyiken dwarf cichlid that are a bit larger, tougher, and habitual cave dweller.
 

anewbie

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Tetra are fast, Rams are slow. Diamond, bleeding heart or Columbia tetra grow as large as male Ram. Serpae and rosy are a bit too small to be with Geo. I like Ram too but they are delicate to keep even without powerful competitors, and will certainly be bullied in open water. You have better chance to go with Kribensis and many Tanganyiken dwarf cichlid that are a bit larger, tougher, and habitual cave dweller.
Big mistake to mix africans with sa; they don't speak the same language which often leads to conflict.
 

anewbie

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Sorry should’ve been clearer, they’ll eat female apistogramma not rams. Rams I think will be outcompeted/intimidated due to the size of the geophagus. Full grown winellmeri are a big fish. You’ve also have pictus catfish which are extremely greedy fast fish, again another that May outcompete the dwarf cichlids. It is a massive tank so could be possible. I just feel dwarf cichlids do best when they’re the ‘dominant’ species and can really show their best behaviour. If you went with a smaller geophagus species I think the dwarfs would be doable.

Cheers
Which smaller geo would you suggest that is comfortable in the warmer waters. When I looked up sizes they all seem similar but perhaps i missed something; the primary alternatives i had listed in my notes were altifrons or sveni.
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My notes list cupido as an another geo like fish i could add but I think i would prefer krobia over cupido; and focus on one bottom geo.
 

AlecF

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My only advice would be to go slower stocking. Start with 3 species from the list, cories, a tetra, and a feature fish, edited according to the good advice above. Let them settle. Then you have more time to research what to add and enjoy the decisions. There's so much different behaviour within a species, it can help to see what kind of personalities you've got. With all the choices you have I agree a SA focus seems good.
 

tiger15

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Big mistake to mix africans with sa; they don't speak the same language which often leads to conflict.
Not true. Close species aggression is greater than distant species aggression. Not speaking the same language enables greater harmony as they don’t perceive each other as competition. The reason you don’t want to mix African with SA is water chemistry requirement. CA and non Amazon SA have water chemistry closer to African rift lakes, and many common tetra are bred in alkaline water in Florida. Most Geos, Apisto and Rams are black water species and don’t do well in alkaline water. I mix many Africans with CA and SA but stay out of black water species. Having all Africans or all CA/SA closely related has greater aggression and hybridization problem IME than mixing distant species. I’m not displaying a public aquarium for education so Biotope and species purity is not a mandate. I mixed plants and live stock from all continents as long as their water demands are similar.
 

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ScareCrow

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Not true. Close species aggression is greater than distant species aggression. Not speaking the same language enables greater harmony as they don’t perceive each other as competition
I'm not an animal behaviourist but
I would say this isn't entirely true. "Not speaking the same language" is a real problem. Species that encounter one another in the wild will be able to read behavioural cues.
I think ecological niche, availability of suitable habitat and level of aggression are more relevant. If you were to keep several cave dwelling species together but only provide a single cave, the most aggressive of the species will get the cave, regardless of whether they are closely related, from the same region or not.

As the OP wants to keep corydoras, I certainly wouldn't add any African lake cichlids.
 

tiger15

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I agree that Cory and Africans shouldn’t be kept together as Cory are soft water fish, and Africans are hard water. But bristlenose and many common tetra can as they have been bred in Florida alkaline water for decades. There are no true cave dwellers from SA/CA., only cave hugger. True cave dwellers from African rift lakes as well as Kribs thrive in, swim upside down and even lay eggs on roofs of caves. Certainly, you don’t keep cave dwellers with one cave to share, but multiple and preferably caves within caves for best outcome. I found that cave dwellers love to sneak in and out of dense vegetation that do not exist in their natural habitat.. Regarding behavior, close species display similar courtship and territorial signals that can lead to inter species aggression and hybridization. Distant species speaking different language can avoid such pitfalls and attain greater harmony IME.
 

anewbie

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Not true. Close species aggression is greater than distant species aggression. Not speaking the same language enables greater harmony as they don’t perceive each other as competition. The reason you don’t want to mix African with SA is water chemistry requirement. CA and non Amazon SA have water chemistry closer to African rift lakes, and many common tetra are bred in alkaline water in Florida. Most Geos, Apisto and Rams are black water species and don’t do well in alkaline water. I mix many Africans with CA and SA but stay out of black water species. Having all Africans or all CA/SA closely related has greater aggression and hybridization problem IME than mixing distant species. I’m not displaying a public aquarium for education so Biotope and species purity is not a mandate. I mixed plants and live stock from all continents as long as their water demands are similar.
For west african species like kribs soft water is the norm. Obviously lake africans are not compatible with regards ot water but since kribs were mentioned they are a valid consideration with regards to water condition. There are some really nice west african fishes to consider but the conflict in signals is a problem.
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Many species of central american fishes prefer harder water that are closer to rift like fishes but i have no interest in going that direction.
 

JeffK

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Geophagus require a large section of... earth. Sand, more like it, but they like to sift through the substrate.

Corydoras would love a big sandy substrate, but be careful with the combination. Corydoras do not understand territorial boundaries which could result in conflicts, especially when Geo's are breeding, and stress out both fish.

I would not add in Apistogramma. They usually inhabit different biotopes with many leaves and wood that has fallen off trees. Only a handful species like A. commbrae are found in more open spaces.

If I were you, I'd pick your favorite fish and add fish that combine well and are from the same habitat.

Oh and might I add: what a huge tank! So many options and possibilities!
 

Conort2

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Which smaller geo would you suggest that is comfortable in the warmer waters. When I looked up sizes they all seem similar but perhaps i missed something; the primary alternatives i had listed in my notes were altifrons or sveni.
Mirabilis, red head tapajos or geophagus sp panta rhei/teles pires would be good. The biotodoma species are also a good choice. The guinacara sp in the trade would also be a good choice.

Cheers
 

John q

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Big mistake to mix africans with sa; they don't speak the same language which often leads to conflict.
Rather dependent on the sp of fish you choose, I keep Anomalochromis thomasi with Mikrogeophagus altispinosus, without issue.
 

anewbie

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Mirabilis, red head tapajos or geophagus sp panta rhei/teles pires would be good. The biotodoma species are also a good choice. The guinacara sp in the trade would also be a good choice.

Cheers
mirabllis is the same size as winemilleri so i suppose that one is out; the red head doesn't appeal to me but teh sources i link also indicate it is the same size (6-8 ich/20cm) but maybe smaller bodied?, sp panta is also listed as 20cm adult. So my question are the sources of information i'm finding on these fishes incorrect or are they really smaller than winemilleri ?

Btw the mirabllis looks like an interesting fish - just that it is listed as the same size as winemilleri.
 
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