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Red stem plants that don't require nitrate limitation?

Toby C

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Rotala ‘blood red’ could be an option, sounds like it doesn’t need nitrate limitation to colour up as much.

 

MichaelJ

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Hopefully you guys can help me. I'm looking for a stem plant that will be red without nitrate limitation e.g. Ludwigia Super Red.

However, the leaf size of ludwigia is too large (it's for a diorama contest tank), so I'm looking for something similar to Rotala if such a thing exists.
Now, this is really something that I genuinely would like to understand. How "starving" off certain plants from essential nutrients such as NO3 can be beneficial for color? I am not questioning the merits; @Courtneybst 's tanks are incredible, as anyone who's seen them knows... I am just trying to understand the esoteric approach here.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Courtneybst

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Rotala ‘blood red’ could be an option, sounds like it doesn’t need nitrate limitation to colour up as much.
Thanks Toby, I've actually got lots of it growing emersed so I've taken 6 stems (as of last night) and submersed them to see if I can get them red. Let's see what happens.
Now, this is really something that I genuinely would like to understand. How "starving" off certain plants from essential nutrients such as NO3 can be beneficial for color? I am not questioning the merits; @Courtneybst 's tanks are incredible, as anyone who's seen them knows... I am just trying to understand the esoteric approach here.

Cheers,
Michael
Thanks Michael! To be honest I've never actually done nitrate limitation myself (except on a windowsill) and so I don't really know what it is about it that leads to redder plants.

My guess is that in the same way some plants turn red under high light to 'protect' themselves, nitrate limitation produces a stress response and that further induces the colour. It would explain why some people suggest that producing intense colours this way is not sustainable for the plant. But that's just my estimation, there could be more to it than that.
 

Wolf6

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Perhaps Ludwigia sp. mini super red? I dont have it but supposedly has smaller leaves. If those are still too big, I dont know, sorry. Maybe Myriophyllum Tuberculatum? Very different leaf shape of course but also very delicate....
 

Courtneybst

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Perhaps Ludwigia sp. mini super red? I dont have it but supposedly has smaller leaves. If those are still too big, I dont know, sorry. Maybe Myriophyllum Tuberculatum? Very different leaf shape of course but also very delicate....
The mini super red does very well to stay red without nitrate limitation but even the mini leaves are too large for the diorama scale. I'm hoping the Rotala pulls through because that type of leaf size and structure is perfect.

Thank you though! I appreciate the suggestions.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
We have some <"threads">, this one might be of <"particular interest">.
I genuinely would like to understand. How "starving" off certain plants from essential nutrients such as NO3 can be beneficial for color?
My guess is that in the same way some plants turn red under high light to 'protect' themselves,
Anthocyanin (red pigments) production is definitely associated with higher light. If you look at it in energy terms Clive's <"photon torpedo"> of light is going to cause a lot of damage <"if it is intercepted by leaf tissue (chloroplasts)"> that doesn't have access to enough CO2 etc.

Blame the <"First law of thermodynamics">, energy has to go somewhere.

The other reason is just where the <"anthocyanins are in the plant cell">, they are in the cells vacuole, masked in the <"mesophyll by the chloroplasts">.

We know that plant leaf greeness (chlorophyll content) is <"strongly correlated with nitrogen availability"> so less fixed nitrogen means less chlorophyll and more chance to see the redness shining through.

This is what you <"get in the autumn"> with red tree leaves, <"the plant withdraws the chlorophyll"> before the leaf is abscised and the yellow (carotenes) and red colours, that were previously obscured, show through.

cheers Darrel
 
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MrClockOff

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Bournemouth
Hopefully you guys can help me. I'm looking for a stem plant that will be red without nitrate limitation e.g. Ludwigia Super Red.

However, the leaf size of ludwigia is too large (it's for a diorama contest tank), so I'm looking for something similar to Rotala if such a thing exists.

Any suggestions?
I have Ludwigia Palustris and it's always red despite full EI dosing. Also leaf is about half inch length
 

Tom Delattre

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Hi all,
We have some /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/whats-the-secret-to-keeping-red-plants-red.54727/']thread[/URL]s">, this one might be of /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/why-are-plants-green-to-reduce-the-noise-in-photosynthesis.61892/']particular interest[/URL]">.


Anthocyanin (red pigments) production is definitely associated with higher light. If you look at it in energy terms Clive's /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/anubias-snow-white-melted-will-they-recover.63320/page-2#post-628158']"photon torpedo"[/URL]> of light is going to cause a lot of damage /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-column-dosing-and-substrate-questions.1669/#post-359607']if it is intercepted by leaf tissue (chloroplasts[/URL])"> that doesn't have access to enough CO2 etc.

Blame the /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics']First law of thermodynamics[/URL]">, energy has to go somewhere.

The other reason is just where the /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/rotala-changes-colour-daily.63042/#post-622240']anthocyanins are in the plant cell[/URL]">, they are in the cells vacuole, masked in the /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/aquarium-plant-fertilizers-sources-of-nitrogen.63115/#post-623083']mesophyll by the chloroplasts[/URL]">.

We know that plant leaf greeness (chlorophyll content) is /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-scientific-background-to-the-leaf-colour-chart.62129/']strongly correlated with nitrogen availability[/URL]"> so less fixed nitrogen means less chlorophyll and more chance to see the redness shining through.

This is what you /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/whats-the-secret-to-keeping-red-plants-red.54727/page-2#post-537685']get in the autumn[/URL]"> with red tree leaves, /science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/leaves-turn-red1.htm']the plant withdraws the chlorophyll[/URL]"> before the leaf is abscised and the yellow (carotenes) and red colours, that were previously obscured, show through.

cheers Darrel
I'm astonished by how insightful your posts are each time. Thanks!
And thanks Courtney for the question, interesting topic.

Envoyé de mon KB2003 en utilisant Tapatalk
 

MichaelJ

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I have a reasonable knowledge base to call on.
Oh really? :lol:

But seriously Darrel, without you and a handful of other prolific experts around here, this forum would be nowhere near as educational and insightful as it is. You all compliment each other very well - and bring out the best in a lot of members!

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Courtneybst

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Oh really? :lol:

But seriously Darrel, between you and a handful of other prolific experts around here, this forum would be nowhere near as educational and insightful as it is. You all compliment each other very well - and bring out the best in a lot of members!

Cheers,
Michael
Hear hear!
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
between you and a handful of other prolific experts around here
I think that is the advantage this forum has over a lot of other forums, we might not always agree, but generally we have a <"more informed level of debate"> and good moderation so that disagreements don't spiral out of control.
so I have a reasonable knowledge base to call on.
I should have said I've been <"incredibly lucky"> in that I've worked with <"proper scientists"> and they have often pointed <"me in the right direction"> when I've been direction-less.

I've done this for a long time now, but there are still always things that <"surprise me"> and make me re-think my advice etc.

cheers Darrel
 
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tiger15

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USA
Luwidgian narrow leaf (repens x arcuata) and Luwidgian super red (palustris) both have small leaves and can get red without nitrate limitation, and the latter is popular for making bonsai tree. The smallest leaf red stem belongs to Rotala, and there are varieties that are redder than others without nitrate limitation. My Rotala Vietnam is pinkish and Luwidgian narrow leaf is reddish near the light source in my medium light set up without nitrate limitation.

I read from Dutch growers that majority red plants don't need nitrate limitation to get red, and only a handful do, given adequate PAR and CO2. I grow Rotala, Luwidgian and Mermaid stems in my zero tech Walstad bowls that receive afternoon sunlight from the window, yet they don't get any red despite intense light (250 to 600 PAR), low nutrients, but limited CO2. So getting red requires not just high light, low nutrients, but good CO2 and other factors as well.

 

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