Question about sand and dirt

[Wookii]

What ever you use there will be cloudiness when you uproot plants as the detritus in-between the substrate particles is disturbed. I have been experimenting with sand and grit as a substrate in my high tech 'pot tank' and have been quite pleased with results, sand does yield a denser carpet of mini hair grass. I am dosing Urea in the tank also which a risk with it being ammonium based however every dosing a very little very often, think its setup to dose about 100 times a week so the ammoium/nitrite peak is avoided, which you would get if dosing 7 times a week.

I am thinking of just using sand in my 500l tank on the rescape I will be doing soon due to moving. Most of plants I like are do well growing in the water column/sand/grit so the need of a rich/active substrate seems a little questionable ATM.

Hi all,

My thoughts as well. There might be microbial? advantages to a humus rich substrate for Cryptocoryne spp. etc .

cheers Darrel

Following this thread with interest @Fred13 - I not a fan of aqua soils myself despite using it in my last few scapes, and I'm also planning on going with a sand substrate also on my next scape - not least because I intend to make it more of a 'habitat' style tank also - so I hope you don't mind me joining this thread and asking some questions of my own?

What 'sand and grit' recipes have you come up with so far @Zeus. - and given a scape as large as your 500 litre tank will be, what depth do you think you can keep it without running into anaerobic/hydrogen sulphide issues?

Can this be mitigated by staying above a certain grain size for the sand, or would it work to add a layer of crushed lava rock under the sand - or would that result in the same disturbance issues as capping aquasoil?

 

[Fred13]

If you use AS any brand it will work, however over time the active substrate will lose its CEC (Cationic Exchange Capacity) and possibly break down, if you have hard water this will speed up the loss of the CEC as well. So if planning to rescape yearly AS is the easy winner. AS has a much higher carbon foot print then sand/grit.
Sand/grit is inert all it provides is anchorage for the plants, using lava stone will give some CEC. Most folk who use sand grit add something else for nutrition even if its just clay, but is there a need to add anything else ?????
I have read threads where folk have use inert substrates only and suddenly they stop posting which suggests issues esp if going high tech. However since I have been using inert substrate only in my pot scape I have been pleasantly surprised with the results so far. Maybe because of me dosing 100 times week with my DIY ferts - dunno!

So to use inert substrate only you take a risk it may not work depending on the plants you choose. But if you use one inert substrate in tank its so easy to add root tabs as there is no mixing of different substrates. If you ask at your LFS they will sell you every product on the shelf if they can.

Plants are masters at what they do and have been doing it for millions of years, provided them with 'just' enough of what they need and they will survive, provide them in slight excess what they need and they will thrive and bloom to the max, how much is enough without going OTT

You are right overall and thank you for the analysis.
Below is my last setup which was one of my favorites. Ok, I know it was a high tech one but I used only a clay substrate ( tropica classic one) capped with 1-2 mm gravel.
That was the most algae free tank I ever had since I have started the hobby.
I had plenty of light, daily dosing , 30ppm co2 but no AS or any other magical combination of layers.


However, the low tech setup I am going to is an entirely different approach and to be honest it's the first time I am trying this. I got into hobby with high tech tanks since I was a newbie.

I am looking forward for a long term project. I used to keep my tanks for about 6 months but this time I want to reduce the budgets and enjoy fish a little bit more than before.
In conclusion, concerning the substrate I don't really mind to spend several more pounds for an under layer substrate like the tropicas I use in the above video. Even with some crushed lava stone or something even fancier like ada power sand which I have spare in my empty tank for about 1 year and a half. I am pretty confident that this will work just fine. NOT sure though if it will work better than just having sand and root tabs. This one is as you have mentioned a debatable question.
The only thing I want to ensure is that it wont cause any serious issues which can lead to a rescape, like the blending of the 2 layers.
I remind you that the initial plan was 1 cm dirt 3.5 cm. I think there is a good distance between those two but I will appreciate any further information related to your experience.

 

[Tally]

Hi @Fred13

I ran a low tech, AS capped with sand set up for 4years and it is a messy affair when moving/removing plants.

The planted AS behind rockwork and separate sand area has worked long term for me. It has been running for 5 years mostly low tech with a short period of CO2 injection but now back to low tech . The sand is unipac kivu which is 1mm and this has caused no issues with cory barbels although they are unable to sift it through their gills. If aesthetics is an issue for you, the corys still manage to drag AS from behind the rocks onto the sand area.

Similar to yourself, I've just started a low tech, long term tank for my rams and was undecided on the substrate. I've gone for 50mm of unipac kivu sand and root tabs. I've planted amazon sword into the sand and have planted clay pots with AS scattered around. I think I will end up removing the pots and replanting directly in the sand. Only time will tell if this will work long term.

If you check out a recent Pektec posting on You tube, he's just capped an existing AS set up with sand without removing any of the plants. You can still make changes in a long term set up if things aren't working out without having to start from scratch.

 

[Fred13]

Hi @Fred13

I ran a low tech, AS capped with sand set up for 4years and it is a messy affair when moving/removing plants.

The planted AS behind rockwork and separate sand area has worked long term for me. It has been running for 5 years mostly low tech with a short period of CO2 injection but now back to low tech . The sand is unipac kivu which is 1mm and this has caused no issues with cory barbels although they are unable to sift it through their gills. If aesthetics is an issue for you, the corys still manage to drag AS from behind the rocks onto the sand area.

Similar to yourself, I've just started a low tech, long term tank for my rams and was undecided on the substrate. I've gone for 50mm of unipac kivu sand and root tabs. I've planted amazon sword into the sand and have planted clay pots with AS scattered around. I think I will end up removing the pots and replanting directly in the sand. Only time will tell if this will work long term.

If you check out a recent Pektec posting on You tube, he's just capped an existing AS set up with sand without removing any of the plants. You can still make changes in a long term set up if things aren't working out without having to start from scratch.

Thank you for the interesting information!
I am not really into putting soil and then cap it with sand. I consider putting dirt like deponit mix or plant growth substrate from tropica which is more sand type. I am pretty sure I ll get some cloudiness after removing any plants but this is my desired option so far.
As a second choise, I thought of putting just nutrition tabs and nothing else, though I really like the idea of having a more enchriched substrate.
It is still debatable in my mind!

 

[Fred13]

Just a quick review of what we v discussed here.
I ll get the sand today with the size of 0.4 to 0.8mm. I am thinking of using dennerle deponit mix , a soil retainer and then 3 cms of sand. I v never used this garden retainer so far , therefore I have zero experience. Would this keep my layers seperate on long run?

 

[Fred13]

Goodmorning and Merry Christmas!
I had a quick chat with the green aqua members. They suggested me to put 1 cm of dirt and about 4 cm of sand (0.4 to 0.8mm) for a long term aquarium to avoid any mixing between the layers. I understand that because of the height distance it isnt possible for dirt to come up as the first layer. But what should I do to prevent clogging and air traps? Shall I use some crashed lava rock combined with the dirt?

 

[Wookii]

Where did you get with this @Fred13? Over the Christmas period I found some old Dennerle Deponit in the garage from some 20 years ago. It essentially looks like little red chips of hard dry clay, perhaps about 5mm across. I note that the more recent version available now looks more like a mixture of difference sized grains and materials.

The old stuff I have looks perfect for a base layer, as the chips stay hard in water, maintain plenty of air gaps, and would stay put under a retainer mesh - though I have no idea of their actual ability to deliver long term nutrients. I've noticed that the JBL Florapol looks similar (though a different colour):

JBL PROFLORA Florapol

Long-term supply for the substate: long-term substrate fertiliser for freshwater aquariums

www.jbl.de

JBL claim it can be used for long term nutrient supply, but include precious little detail on what nutrients precisely, so it could just be marketing guff - perhaps one of our resident experts can offer some thoughts, it's probably a product available £1/Kg elsewhere?

 

[Tim Harrison]

Goodmorning and Merry Christmas!
I had a quick chat with the green aqua members. They suggested me to put 1 cm of dirt and about 4 cm of sand (0.4 to 0.8mm) for a long term aquarium to avoid any mixing between the layers. I understand that because of the height distance it isnt possible for dirt to come up as the first layer. But what should I do to prevent clogging and air traps? Shall I use some crashed lava rock combined with the dirt?

I think that's a good plan and the best of your options. Crypts especially seem to thrive in soil or dirt.
You can mix a few handfuls of crushed lava rock or horticultural grit in with the soli if you want it won't hurt and will help improve the structure.

Either way plant roots will soon colonise the substrate and modify it so it's more conducive to growth.
Plant densely from the outset for the best results.

 

[Fred13]

I think that's a good plan and the best of your options. Crypts especially seem to thrive in soil or dirt.
You can mix a few handfuls of crushed lava rock or horticultural grit in with the soli if you want it won't hurt and will help improve the structure.

Either way plant roots will soon colonise the substrate and modify it so it's more conducive to growth.
Plant densely from the outset for the best results.

Thank you for the advice Tim! Since it will be a more biotope oriented setup I will moderately plant but more than 50 percent I suppose.

To be honest I feel a little bit newbie because I am going without pressurized co2 for the first time since I v started the hobby. This is why I am focusing that much on substrate.

I have considered several approaches regarding carbon but I have not decided yet.

1st approach , No carbon source. Just my substrate, tablets , lean dosing and that's it.

Second, usage of liquid carbon

And finally to use pressurized co2 )) but aim at a low ppm so in combination with my low light intensity the growth will be stable but still slow which is my goal since I want a long term aquarium with less time needed for maintenance..
Although I am really confused of what to choose!!

 

[Fred13]

Where did you get with this @Fred13? Over the Christmas period I found some old Dennerle Deponit in the garage from some 20 years ago. It essentially looks like little red chips of hard dry clay, perhaps about 5mm across. I note that the more recent version available now looks more like a mixture of difference sized grains and materials.

The old stuff I have looks perfect for a base layer, as the chips stay hard in water, maintain plenty of air gaps, and would stay put under a retainer mesh - though I have no idea of their actual ability to deliver long term nutrients. I've noticed that the JBL Florapol looks similar (though a different colour):

JBL PROFLORA Florapol

Long-term supply for the substate: long-term substrate fertiliser for freshwater aquariums

www.jbl.de

JBL claim it can be used for long term nutrient supply, but include precious little detail on what nutrients precisely, so it could just be marketing guff - perhaps one of our resident experts can offer some thoughts, it's probably a product available £1/Kg elsewhere?

Thank you Wookii,
I haven't had the chance to see deponit mix in close. On the YouTube videos the new version looks like more like a sand of different size grains.
I have some spare ada power sand from a previous setup. I ll probably use it, my main concern is if it will mix with sand because of their different size.

 

[Tim Harrison]

And finally to use pressurized co2 )) but aim at a low ppm so in combination with my low light intensity the growth will be stable but still slow which is my goal since I want a long term aquarium with less time needed for maintenance..
Although I am really confused of what to choose!!

That’d be my chosen methodology. It’s the best of both worlds. What I like to call a hybrid-energy approach.

 

[Fred13]

That’d be my chosen methodology. It’s the best of both worlds. What I like to call a hybrid-energy approach.

"Hybrid-energy" thats a great way to call it I guess the golden rule is to have a little bit more co2 than light intensity but aim low at both of them.
Otherwise, I thought of using liquid carbon which I know it isn't co2, or at least it isn't the same but just a supplement. I have never used this before so I have zero experience with it. What is your opinion about that?

 

[Tim Harrison]

What is your opinion about that?

It's great as an algicide but not much use as a CO2 alternative. If additional carbon is the route you want to go I'd go with pressurised CO2 every time. Depending on how you source either it's often the cheapest in the long run, especially if you already have the kit.

 

[Fred13]

It's great as an algicide but not much use as a CO2 alternative. If additional carbon is the route you want to go I'd go with pressurised CO2 every time. Depending on how you source either it's often the cheapest in the long run, especially if you already have the kit.

Unfortunately I dont have the equipment anymore.. I gave it away as a gift to a friend. If i want to go with pressurized co2 I should buy everything from scratch. The refill on the long run is pretty cheap here, about 3-4 euros for 2kgs. Initial cost is about 160e for a full co2 equipment including a dual stage regulator, solenoid , 2kg bottle and an inline difusser.

 

[Fred13]

It's great as an algicide but not much use as a CO2 alternative. If additional carbon is the route you want to go I'd go with pressurised CO2 every time. Depending on how you source either it's often the cheapest in the long run, especially if you already have the kit.

Hello Tim, I want your opinion regarding the co2. It isn't a substrate related topic but since we have discussed it above I am posting it here.
After our chat I decided to buy a co2 pressurized system (once again).
But I still want low maintenance. This is my main goal. The only reason I am buying this is because even the low demanding plants will take advantage of the co2 and grow properly. Less algae issues etc etc..
As for the hybrid approach you mentioned I am thinking of low to med light intensity , easy plants, low to med growers and co2 of about 10 to 15 ppm.
Limited light and co2 and easy plants with lower growth.
Finally, as for the substrate I ll go with root tabs only. I found that better for the long run.
Please correct me if I am wrong with my thoughts.
Thank you!

 

[Wookii]

Thank you Wookii,
I haven't had the chance to see deponit mix in close. On the YouTube videos the new version looks like more like a sand of different size grains.
I have some spare ada power sand from a previous setup. I ll probably use it, my main concern is if it will mix with sand because of their different size.

I had a look in the garage, and actually the old substrate I was thinking of was was some API Laterite which is small hard orange chips.

I did also have some old Dennerle Deponit 200 and it does look like a mix of sand, gravels and some brown (presumably organic) particles.

After doing some more research it looks like the CEC of laterite is pretty low, so thats probably not worth recommending. I’d also wonder if a lot of the particles in the Deponit mix would likely come up through the cap layer of sand over time - especially with replanting. I can’t help thinking that the Deponit also looks like mainly sand which seem a bit of a rip off.

For my next rescape I’m thinking now of a base layer consisting of a mixture of the JBL Florpol (unless someone can suggest a better nutrient loaded high CEC clay substrate), crushed lava rock, a bit of Osmacoat, and some peat, covered with a thin layer of coarse sand or plain lava rock, then the mesh retainer, then sand capping layer.

The only thing that concerns me is the peat you buy for general gardening is very loose and messy, and I’m keen to avoid anything that might be likely to come up through the crappy layer pulling up plant runners or replanting etc.

I’m wondering if the peat granules such as the Fluval ones designed for in filter use might be a more robust and suitable alternative to the gardening type? I guess it depends on whether the forming of the granules might have involved heating to the point that some of the visual elements organically may have been lost. Does anyone know?

 

[Fred13]

I am thinking of putting power sand or any other crashed lava stone (JBL e.g.) into net filter bags and then cap them with the sand so I can increase the height backwards for bigger plants such as echinodorus. Otherwise, the sand will get flatten in no time. I haven't used that technique before but my logic says that this will also increase the aeration and the generic biology of the substrate. Furthermore, it cannot get mixed over time.
What do you think?