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Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

Sudipta

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This is most probably not related to temperatures but proves that in a close environment plant don't necessarily behave like in their natural habitat which is 10 fold more complex.
That's exactly what I am trying to say. Temperature is just one of the factors. Fast flowing river water contains a lot of organics (particulate and dissolved). There are several scientific papers showing the importance of those organics when it comes to supporting aquatic plant life (primarily production of CO2, maintaining decent oxygen levels, possibly continuous supply of most nutrients needed by plants etc.).
Even though the tds is low but the water is extremely rich in those organics.
 
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dw1305

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Hi all,
whether there are actually 'target dosing ranges' for plants to help them achieve their best 'form' and whether different species have different targets.
<"Unequivocally they will">. It is back to <"Tomatoes and Orchids">.
Ask Darrel he is an expert in recycling old posts
Uh um, I beg your pardon, surely you mean "Carefully curating pre-loved material".
We need to get him to do a top 50 for the beginners and a top 50 for the advanced!!
It is not going to work, as I' said a while a go I haven't made <"thirteen thousand posts">, I've made the same three posts recycled ("carefully curated") <"four thousand times each">. If I was a busker I'd only have one song and <"I wouldn't be very good at that">.

It is one of the many reasons I couldn't have a <"YouTube channel">, after two episodes in I'd have run out of content.
Whilst we're on the subject, I absolutely agree with Sudipta, the microorganism communities in our tanks play a major role in their health and are probably the main reason why mature tanks can become incredibly stable and robust. And why plants continue to thrive with minimal fertz, and CO2 input and sometimes neglect.
That is a view I subscribe to as well, and I thank <"Cory for the Aquarium Co-Op"> for <"posting on this subject">, because it takes a lot of guts to say what he said, because you know you are going to be <"trolled mercilessly">.
Although this one already posted by @Sudipta is very accessible

Thanks to @Sudipta , that is a good one. A remember the first time I read about <"novel ammonia oxidising microorganisms"> (Archaea, COMAMMOX Nitrospira etc) in aquarium filters, it was a like finding the Plec you hadn't seen for three years was both still alive, (and looking very healthy), and your football team winning the league all in one (damascene) moment, I was pretty sure I was right about cycling, but until then I didn't have any science to back it up with.
There are several scientific papers showing the importance of those organics when it comes to supporting aquatic plant life (primarily production of CO2, maintaining decent oxygen levels, possibly continuous supply of most nutrients needed by plants etc.).
Even though the tds is low but the water is extremely rich in those organics.
<"Same again">. I've linked it in lots of times, but <"All the leaves are brown"> is well worth a read.

cheers Darrel
 
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Hanuman

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Uh um, I beg your pardon, surely you mean "Carefully curating pre-loved material".
Definitely Darrel. The word recycling may have a negative connotation for some but not in my book. It's actually a good thing what you do. It forces people to search and investigate more. It also keeps old threads alive.
 

Sudipta

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A remember the first time I read about <"novel ammonia oxidising microorganisms"> (Archaea, COMAMMOX Nitrospira etc)
Hello Darrel,
Since you mentioned comammox... I was able to show during my PhD that one of the laboratory constructed mutants of nitrogenase is capable of reducing nitrate all the way to ammonia. Although it is definitely not relevant to what happens in nature (at least for now) but it was quite fascinating to prove that a single enzyme can catalyze the 8e- reduction of nitrate all the way to ammonia (wildtype enzyme showed extremely low levels of activity, significantly less than the already low activity shown by the mutant, as can be seen from the figure below). My PhD advisor didn't believe my results when I first showed him my findings but eventually I was able to convince him by repeating my experiments multiple times. As far as I am aware, no other enzyme (single enzyme system) currently known to science can catalyze this reaction.
Nitrate reductioon by V70A mutant of nitrogenase.jpg
 
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aquanoobie

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Here are some links that you might find interesting:
Hi @Sudipta
Interesting reading. This article says not all freshwater tanks share the same microbial diversity. Would you say this is because not all tanks have the same conditions to support it or because some microbial species are absent?
 

JoshP12

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There is a lot of emphasis on temperature.

In my books, temp is a tool.

If you are trying to get max O2 in the system to support life, then temp can certainly facilitate the upper bound for saturation … and it will slow down the rate of O2 consumption of everything.

I mean … that assumes O2 wasn’t in pseudo-excess at higher temps (differentiated for each unique species of course since consumption rates aren’t uniform)? There are lots of ways to increase O2 (lights, plant mass, filtration, agitation, maintenance frankly).

But it’s cold … . Why not introduce natural temp fluctuations where at night it’s colder and during the day it’s warmer? If we think about the system, this makes a whole lot of sense.

Are we worried about plant forms? tightening up internodes? Ya low temp reduce metabolism and decrease demand on everything increasing the likelihood that the plant will be “willing to tighten up since current conditions are favourable”.

I’m more worried about ridding the column of bad things (don’t know what they are) and I have no clue how to do that … but the microbiology and macrobiology does … and it works faster (maybe not more Efficiently … but it will be efficient if O2 and probably lots of other stuff is present … where O2 had the largest magnitude of determiner of success - just guessing - and impose a leidbig law to all living things … that makes sense too) … . Why I’m worried about that? We have hundreds of other tools to obtain tight plant forms … why withhold energy? I will say that it is more scary and influential than light.

In my eyes: give them the energy they need to do their job to protect the system from the baddies - good will prevail!

Are we afraid of algae? Best thing I did was spawn them all repeatedly and predictably and then fix the system … after.

My 2c on temperature.

People are afraid of it and fish are cold.

Fundamentally, it’s the same argument for light and once we see the argument, it makes sense why the sun is bright and hot … (or it makes sense why we evolved under those predisposed conditions).
 
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Sudipta

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Hi @Sudipta
Interesting reading. This article says not all freshwater tanks share the same microbial diversity. Would you say this is because not all tanks have the same conditions to support it or because some microbial species are absent?
Yes that's true, all tanks are different (just like humans, our body is covered with microorganisms, inside and outside. However, there is significant diversity among the microbes from one person to another).
Nobody can predict what type of microbial community will develop in individual tank. There are so many variables and microbes literally communicate with each other through quorum sensing (watch the TED talk link I posted yesterday). One group of microbes can block another group to grow, they can also allow certain microbes to flourish if there is an advantage. Once the tank is running, it is an ecosystem. It is not something that can be controlled.
 

Tim Harrison

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I'd hazard a wild guess that microbial species diversity in fish tanks, and on and in humans etc, is determined by and maintained like any other insular biota through a dynamic equilibrium between immigration and extinction rates. In particular by something along the lines of MacArthur and Wilson's seminal piece on The Theory of Island Biogeography. Although originally applied to island ecosystems, it has since been applied to microbiota as well :)
 

aquanoobie

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Once the tank is running, it is an ecosystem. It is not something that can be controlled.
Thank you @Sudipta
Is having the right microbial species needed to have balanced ecosystem? Yes it is. But the question is do we have to bring those missing species in and seed the tank or does it happen naturally when the conditions are right?
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Interesting reading. This article says not all freshwater tanks share the same microbial diversity. Would you say this is because not all tanks have the same conditions to support it or because some microbial species are absent?
I'm going to guess that it is the differences in tank maturity and, probably most importantly, the ammonia loading.
......... But the question is do we have to bring those missing species in and seed the tank or does it happen naturally when the conditions are right?
I think that is where tank maturity comes in, you can "cheat" by adding an inoculum from an existing filter, but over time the microbial flora will fine tune itself to the ammonia loading, dissolved oxygen levels, organic carbon loading etc.

I'm going to guess again that you don't have to add anything, over time the appropriate microbial flora will develop.

Cheers Darrel
 

MichaelJ

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Although an interesting conversation it does diverge somewhat from the actual topic, and it seems the OP is a little lost on what he is actually trying to achieve,

Hi @LondonDragon,

Nope. I am not lost at all. I know exactly what I want to achieve:

SudiptaMythicalLTTank.jpg


Not sure why you think I am lost on that goal... :)


and is others that are pushing ideals into the mix as "new techniques" that actually everyone is doing it, and there is a lot of contradition by OP

Not a lot of contradictions as far as I can tell... Well, if the fact that I am listening, learning and tweaking my perception in light of new Information on certain aspects, amount to a lot of contractions, well so be it... I am actually happy that my mind have that flexibility! :) I wish more people would be just a tad more open-minded ;)

and others in this thread, specially when it comes to the "lean" dosing approach that is nothing new and as suggested and shown evidence by many a comercially available fertelizer actually does the same thing, and the couple of examples that have been provided do rely on a lot of parameters in order to achieve some of the results mentioned and the evidence is somewhat lacking!
We never said there weren't any string attached - that was made pretty clear in the original post ... see below for more...


Like the OP mentioned to me, the more he looks into the Happi method that's what started all this conversation the more he realises that it comes with a lot of strings attached, such as the use of NH4 and Urea, low GH and almost no KH, low PH, low temps, mature or rich substrate!
Yep, @Happi @Sudipta et al. never told us otherwise... It was always abundantly clear to me, that this is not for a straight-tap tank that uses 20 GH/20 KH, 8.2 pH water and very high temperatures... It's a framework as I see it, requiring the use of certain compounds (NH4 and/or Urea in small quantities... heck, everything is in small quantities... ), soft acidic water, somewhat lower temps. rich/mature substrate and a bunch of other prerequisites.

At the end of the day very few will be able to reach theses paramenters for very little gain!
Yep, that was pretty much covered by the original post and have been repeated here. The "very little gain!" bit is a matter of opinion, your opinion not mine... for me being able to grow more challenging stem plants is a huge gain for me and my enjoyment of this hobby!

and for an actual aquascaper that wants to turn around scapes quickly this is obsolete, this it more for the long term plant keeper, I have run a tank with no CO2 and heavy planted for over a decade without any issues, I have grown in the past carpert of staurogyne for example. For me is just to have something that looks good to me and keeps healthy and that snails and shrimp are also healthy!
Perfectly fine. Horses for courses... We never talked about this being suitable for aquacapers who often only run their tanks for say 6 month, tear down, rinse, repeat. That is indeed great, just not what I want to accomplish. I want long term success with each tank I set up and generally make very few changes along the way.

I have seen here evidence that when things go wrong chemicals are pumped into the tank to resolve the issues (liquid carbon, etc...) which then also gives the tank and plants a boost for sometime, and like we preach on UKAPS a LOT, keep on top of your maintenance if you want a nice and algae free tank.

The conversation seems to go around in circles and some members that reply tend to ignore some of the things that are being said and just re-write the same thing over and over again using different words to make it sounds more than it actually is!
We occasionally have posts (including from myself) like that, yes... I suppose it's just a testament to the fact that this generates a lot of discussions very quickly that can be hard to sort out. Heck, we are at +300 posts and counting in 6 days... There are bound to be some overlap, repetitiveness and missed posts etc.

Hopefully the OP has taken his medication and will have a clear view of what he is trying to do!!!
No "medication" yet as it is just barely afternoon here in Minnesota :lol: ... but just to reiterate:

I want to grow more challenging stem plants in a low-tech (i.e. NO-CO2 injection) environment - If I can get anywhere close to what @Sudipta, @Happi, @macek.g and others have accomplished I will be a very happy hobbyist and so will my livestock - being in waters with parameters much closer to the natural habitats they evolved in! ... How is this not clear?

Paulo, my friend, I absolutely do not mind being in the firing line of good jokes and banter - I am usually the one having the most fun (pre- and post "medication" :lol:) when that happens in actual social interactions... but I don't really fancy being labelled as lost or "not clear" in this context, when it's quite clear what the objectives are and that I just want to learn more on how I and others can achieve our goals and increase the chance of success. Anyway, let's more on from this and concentrate on the topic here.
The last few last days especially after @Sudipta graciously have joined the conversation I think I have learned more and gained more confidence in this approach... yes, more confidence... I also think a lot of the more skeptical voices here have added a lot of good and more relevant input to this conversation recently.


Cheers,
Michael
 
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Tim Harrison

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That's appreciated Michael, thank you. I think you have all the information and support you need to make this a great success. Personally, I'm really looking forward to a well documented journal. It'd be a great place to carry on this discussion in reference to the actual practical application of all the wonderful contributions made throughout this thread and it's predecessor.
 

Sudipta

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The last few last days especially after @Sudipta graciously have joined the conversation I think I have learned more and gained more confidence in this approach...
Hello Michael,
I am glad that you are feeling confident about the method. However, you might still find it little challenging when you first start it. It is always the same for me, no matter how much I read or watch other researchers doing certain experiments, I only start learning when I conduct those experiments myself. I have not found any alternative yet.
Feel free to contact me anytime if you have any questions. I will be more than happy to give you some plants from my tanks, you just have to collect them from me (I am in Falcon Heights). I can also give you some extract from the filter which might help to seed/cycle your tank (atleast with whatever microorganisms live in my tanks).
All the best. 🙂
 
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MichaelJ

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Hello Michael,
I am glad that you are feeling confident about the method. However, you might still find it little challenging when you first start it. It is always the same for me, no matter how much I read or watch other researchers doing certain experiments, I only start learning when I conduct those experiments myself. I have not found any alternative yet.
Hello Sudipta,

Yes. Well, I am definitely confident, but I am also realistic and have reasonable expectations I think. This will definitely take some wet sleeves, trail and error and learning by doing...

Feel free to contact me anytime if you have any questions.
I will definitely do so - Thanks for offering your help!

I will be more than happy to give you some plants from my tanks, you just have to collect them from me (I am in Falcon Heights). I can also give you some extract from the filter which might help to cycle your tank (atleast with whatever microorganisms live in my tanks).
That would be awesome! Yep, we are not too far apart - I am down at the Saint Croix river, a short 25 minutes drive from where you are at... I will PM you later today or over the weekend with some more details.


All the best. 🙂
Thanks a bunch! You've been very, very helpful so far sharing your experience etc.! Much appreciated! 🙏

Cheers,
Michael
 

LondonDragon

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Paulo, my friend, I absolutely do not mind being in the firing line of good jokes and banter -
Bit of banter indeed, looking forward to that journal ;)
 

GreggZ

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Like the OP mentioned to me, the more he looks into the Happi method that's what started all this conversation the more he realises that it comes with a lot of strings attached, such as the use of NH4 and Urea, low GH and almost no KH, low PH, low temps, mature or rich substrate! At the end of the day very few will be able to reach theses paramenters for very little gain!
The claim for these methods is that high light, low nutrients, and low CO2 can work. I don't dispute that. Sudipta's tank is an excellent example.

But meanwhile in my reality where I talk to a wide range of people in the hobby, for about 95% of the people, high light + low ferts + low CO2 = unhappy plants and algae. I can say that pretty confidently as I have seen it too many times to count. And it happens even more often now that so many LED fixtures are capable of huge amounts of PAR. In most cases lowering light, increasing nutrients, and optimizing CO2 makes things one heck of a lot easier.

Just saying going down this road is not the path of least resistance, and for those trying them I hope that the results are worth the effort.
 
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