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Myriophyllum guyana - Dying - Anyone any experience?

aquascape1987

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Hi guys,

Recently rescaped and am having some trouble with this particular plant, Myriophyllum Guyana.

Planted from tropica tissue culture 8 days ago, and the plant just isn’t doing so well. It’s turning brown and ?dying? stem by stem,with more dying each day, and I’m not sure what is causing it. After a couple of days, the plants had stood up and were all appearing to start to thrive, but now this after a week.

My tank is a TMC signature and is approx 90 litres. 2 x Eheim pro 4 250s coming through spray bars, Co2 injected and am currently using TNC complete, at 15ml per day.

I know it is a very delicate and fragile plant so I’m unsure if I’ve perhaps damaged it when planting, or whether this is due to some kind of deficiency, either ferts or CO2.

Currently my filters are on a reduced flow to allow my carpet to root and spread without being destroyed, but flow around the tank looks to be still quite good, and it also appears to be good in the area of this plant as well, so I’m at a loss really with it.

Has anyone any experience of growing this plant? And perhaps any experience of these kind of difficulties with it?
 

Conort2

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I’ve found it to be pretty easy, as long as it gets decent light and co2 it grows well. Both hard and soft water. Give it a lot of light and it grows at a ridiculous pace.

Cheers
 

Wookii

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Agree with Conor, it grew pretty easily for me when I had it - but it did seem to need quite a bit of light, otherwise it's shed leaves on the lower parts of the stems.
 

Tim Harrison

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Can you post a FTS and some images of the plant, and provide some info on your lighting - intensity and duration.
Stems shedding lower leaves is often a sign of poor CO2 implementation. Are you getting a lime green drop checker at lights on for instance?
 

aquascape1987

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I’ve found it to be pretty easy, as long as it gets decent light and co2 it grows well. Both hard and soft water. Give it a lot of light and it grows at a ridiculous pace.

Cheers

Agree with Conor, it grew pretty easily for me when I had it - but it did seem to need quite a bit of light, otherwise it's shed leaves on the lower parts of the stems.

Yea, I’ve had success with this plant in the past also, so am a bit confused as to what’s going on.

This was the full tank shot on Thursday last week, and you can see that the Guyana on the right as you look at the tank is fine.
A1022640-25E6-4DFA-9008-412A78D88B64.jpeg







And these are the pictures tonight:
BA816FC9-E2BD-4CB3-8B02-22F7557E8ECE.jpeg
02A7401C-66AB-4E3B-B6F6-2094D9ED6566.jpeg
2666124B-C5CA-4AE7-B8FA-E00425A885EF.jpeg


As you can see a lot of it has gone.

My lighting is ADA Aquasky RGB 600 and it’s on 100 percent because it’s not supposed to be dimmed. Photo period is currently 5.5 hours due to it being a new scape.

This is the drop checker:
02A7401C-66AB-4E3B-B6F6-2094D9ED6566.jpeg
 
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Conort2

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Maybe plant it at the front for now where flow and co2 is at it’s strongest? That back corner is probably the worst spot in the aquarium for flow. Once it has grown large enough then move it to the corner where you want it.

I often plant these invitro plants in a spot where light and co2 is at its greatest then move them to their ‘final’ position once they become larger and more established.

Cheers
 

aquascape1987

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I’m thinking about swapping the atomiser onto my outflow line (from tank to filter), as I have run all of my previous tanks, to use the filter to dissolve the Co2 better before the water enters the tank and also get rid of the bubbles in the tank. I know some advise against this, but I’ve never had a problem.

I’m a bit suspicious that the drop checker colour isn’t accurately showing what’s dissolved in the water and is perhaps responding to actual undissolved Co2 bubbles getting in there. There are quite a lot of them in the tank when the co2 is on with the current set up being the atomiser on the return line (from filter to tank).
 
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aquascape1987

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The highlighted area looks very much like <"fertiliser "burn">.

Hi Darrel,

Im not so sure about this to be honest. All of the Guyana started to start to thrive, stood up and was bright green after a day of being in the tank, as if starting to take root. It then started going like this stem by stem progressively.

The healthy stems you can see on this pic have also followed suit since I posted.
 

aquascape1987

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Actually, this has just given me a thought... there are root tabs in the substrate.... do you think that these could be causing this from root level, progressing up?
 

aquascape1987

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I re did it 9 days ago. The soil is Amazonia aqua soil, a mixture of normal size and powder. I did add some new, but I’d say 70 percent is from my old scape. Just cleaned.
 

Wookii

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I re did it 9 days ago. The soil is Amazonia aqua soil, a mixture of normal size and powder. I did add some new, but I’d say 70 percent is from my old scape. Just cleaned.

Amazonia leaches a lot of ammonia, so it may well be that affecting the plant. You possibly shouldn’t have the livestock in quite so soon too. Are you doing daily water changes?
 

aquascape1987

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So you don’t think the root tabs could be causing this then?

I know Amazonia leaches ammonia, however the tank was cycled before the rescape. Filters and 70 percent of the substrate are the same.. the tank tested zero ammonia 2 days ago as well... I’m going to do another test now though.

The fish unfortunately are going to have to ride it out though.. although they all seem quite happy and healthy tbh.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
So you don’t think the root tabs could be causing this then?

I know Amazonia leaches ammonia, however the tank was cycled before the rescape.
I re did it 9 days ago. The soil is Amazonia aqua soil, a mixture of normal size and powder. I did add some new,
One or the other, my guess would be <"ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4+)"> from the Amazonia.

I did wonder initially (we have other <"burn" threads with Amazonia)">, but the fish confused me.

cheers Darrel
 

aquascape1987

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Hmmm 🤔 the bacteria must be processing any ammonia though, as the water is testing zero, and zero nitrites but nitrates building. This to me suggests that my tank has retained its previous cycle bacteria.

The water is perfectly safe for the fish in terms of ammonia and nitrite levels... but I’m wondering if any ammonia coming from the substrate could be causing damage to the plants before it is processed by the bacteria, even tough levels in the water are undetectable by the tests. Also wondering about those root tabs now, having had a quick look at those fertiliser burn threads... maybe I added too much with also adding some new Amazonia?
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
as the water is testing zero, and zero nitrites but nitrates building. ............. The water is perfectly safe for the fish in terms of ammonia and nitrite levels... but I’m wondering if any ammonia coming from the substrate could be causing damage to the plants before it is processed by the bacteria, even tough levels in the water are undetectable by the tests.
Nitrite (NO2) testing is reasonably straightforward, but both <"ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4+)"> and <"nitrate (NO3) testing"> are more problematic.

I'm not anti-testing (I actually have access to analytical lab.) and I'd really like to know what the water parameters in my tanks were, but personally I'm not going to make decisions based on test kits, unless I'm pretty confident they are accurate.

In this case, the plant damage looks like fertiliser burn, which means that whatever the test kit says it is likely that you have high levels of ions in the water, and they are likely to have come from the ADA Amazonia, and they could well include ammonium (NH4+) ions.

You could actually have quite a lot ammonium (NH4)+ ions present without killing your fish, but <"if that TAN was converted to ammonia"> then fish death would ensue.

cheers Darrel
 

aquascape1987

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Ok, so having read through your responses and the sources and threads you have linked, I think what you are saying is:

1) The fact that my API test kit is indicating no ammonia isn’t worth the paper that the colour chart is written on, and is likely not accurate. The test kit indicates TAN anyway, which includes both NH3 and NH4. NH3 being toxic to fish, but NH4 being non toxic.
2) Same with the nitrate test, not necessarily accurate?
3) Nitrite test probably accurate for what it’s worth.


You could actually have quite a lot ammonium (NH4)+ ions present without killing your fish, but <"if that TAN was converted to ammonia"> then fish death would ensue.

I read the part on the source that you linked suggesting that NH4 can be ‘converted’ to NH3 which would make it go from non toxic to toxic, caused by a water change? It doesn’t really explain how this would happen and I don’t really get it to be honest. How would a water change make this happen and is it likely to happen/ a dead cert?

A couple more questions then:

1) What do you propose I do? Is there anything I can do but let it take it’s course?
2) Not sure if you are suggesting my fish are in danger? ... Reading some of your posts in the threads you’ve linked, it looks to me like you are of the opinion that it is quite hard to get a build up of ammonia to toxic levels for fish in a planted tank... But I also have a feeling in there that you may think the fish being in there is a problem?

I’m sorry if that all seems a bit garbled and a bit of an over complex interpretation, but your responses are quite complex.
 

aquascape1987

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I’m also a bit exhausted and nerves thrashed by the tank today as well. What started off as a routine maintenance day has gone quite wrong, with problem after problem. Without going into detail, pretty much everything went wrong involving leaks, breaking things and uprooting plants by mistake...let’s just say it was that bad that I ended up having a temper tantrum and the whole tank almost, very nearly just got lifted up and thrown out on to the front lawn.... so apologies if I’m not processing what you are telling me so efficiently!
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
The fact that my API test kit is indicating no ammonia isn’t worth the paper that the colour chart is written on, and is likely not accurate. The test kit indicates TAN anyway, which includes both NH3 and NH4. NH3 being toxic to fish, but NH4 being non toxic. ................. I read the part on the source that you linked suggesting that NH4 can be ‘converted’ to NH3 which would make it go from non toxic to toxic, caused by a water change? It doesn’t really explain how this would happen and I don’t really get it to be honest. How would a water change make this happen and is it likely to happen/ a dead cert?
The test kit will convert all the ammonia (NH3) to NH4+ via acidification (or it may convert all the NH4+ etc to NH3 using a base like NaOH), which is why it measures TAN, it doesn't tell you the relative proportion of NH3/NH4+, because that is dependent upon the pH.

The relationship between pH ~ NH3 ~ NH4+ is why water changes can convert ammonium to ammonia (and vice versa), it isn't inevitable, but it is a risk.

=NH3-NH4_equlibrium.PNG

What do you propose I do? Is there anything I can do but let it take it’s course?
I'd carry on with the water changes, but add a water conditioner like "Seachem Prime", that will <"bind any ammonia into less toxic compounds">. Prime interferes with the results from some kinds of ammonia test kit.
But I also have a feeling in there that you may think the fish being in there is a problem?
It isn't ideal, but it definitely isn't a disaster, and your fish still look OK. I'd make sure you have plenty of oxygen in the tank, <"microbial nitrification is most often limited by lack of oxygen">.
it looks to me like you are of the opinion that it is quite hard to get a build up of ammonia to toxic levels for fish in a planted tank...
I do but with provisos that depends very strongly on the amount and type of plant growth. I don't worry too much about ammonia, but <"I keep tanks that look like this">.

img_0126-jpg.150545


cheers Darrel
 

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