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Microworm cultures

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I saw grindal worms being discussed so wanted to ask a question...

I remember reading a thread on the Parosphromenus project where it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?
 
Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I saw grindal worms being discussed so wanted to ask a question...

I remember reading a thread on the Parosphromenus project where it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?

Well I get the fish version of the cat food I buy, though that may not mean it doesn’t contain mammal based fats too. Most of the cat biscuit contents will be processed by the Grindal worms into their own body tissues anyway I would have thought, with only a small amount still left in their gut.

If the gut contents are a concern you can grow the worms on the cat biscuits, and then use fish food for the feeding prior to farming them off.
 
Well I get the fish version of the cat food I buy, though that may not mean it doesn’t contain mammal based fats too. Most of the cat biscuit contents will be processed by the Grindal worms into their own body tissues anyway I would have thought, with only a small amount still left in their gut.

If the gut contents are a concern you can grow the worms on the cat biscuits, and then use fish food for the feeding prior to farming them off.
Fair enough. I guess maybe it's not as big of a concern as I initially thought.
 
Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I saw grindal worms being discussed so wanted to ask a question...

I remember reading a thread on the Parosphromenus project where it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?
Like others i use oats but sprinkled with a bit of milk for both my grindal and whiteworm cultures i feed my licorice gouramis on.
 
I started my grindal worm culture with cat food, but found that it would start to smell of sulfur very quickly. I use scrubber pads as the substrate, and I had to replace the water and clean the pads every couple days. I’ve since switched to baby cereal (enriched rice cereal) and I mix it with some spirulina flake to gutload before feeding. The culture stays a lot cleaner that way.
 
I started my grindal worm culture with cat food, but found that it would start to smell of sulfur very quickly. I use scrubber pads as the substrate, and I had to replace the water and clean the pads every couple days. I’ve since switched to baby cereal (enriched rice cereal) and I mix it with some spirulina flake to gutload before feeding. The culture stays a lot cleaner that way.

You should try damp coconut coir - the stuff that comes in a dry block for planting house plants etc in - my Grindal worm culture has no smell what so ever, even after over 18 months in the same substrate and feeding 4-6 cat biscuits twice a week. Other than the feeding it’s literally maintenance free.
 
By my definition, a “microworm” is a common name for a nematode found in the Panagrellus genus, whereas a "white worm" is generally considered as an annelid specific to the genus Enchytraeus that also includes a species known as the "Grindal worm" Enchytraeus buchholzi.

...it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?
I do find that some dry cat foods can cause cultures to slow down, possibly due to the residual presence of ivermectin in animal-derived products or salts. I do like to feed them veterinary-grade dry cat foods due to the high mineral and vitamin content when I am recovering sick fish. You make a very good point because we know that humans have the same problem, notably with pig-derived food, and humans are arguably evolved better to consume certain animals over others. I am quite laid-back about this and will allow some of the gunk from the cat food to be included with the Grindal worms when I scrape them off the culture and feed them to my fish using a small spatula (not best practice). I'm more cautious when feeding anything derived from salmonids (especially what NOAA define as "fish processing waste") or other poorly-regulated fishmeal because there is little guarantee that dead diseased fish called "morts" do not make their way into processed fish food, potentially causing disease incidence in aquarium fish (e.g. aeromonas). On a side note, the proportion of plastics allowed by the Food Standards Agency in animal feed produced in the UK is 0.15% by weight and I suspect that has the potential for leading to cancer in a lot of cats, but I could be wrong. A lot of native Enchytraeids are found in seaweed and NOAA indicate that this type of feed has significant growth potential and benefits for fish. I guess if I wanted a superfood performance diet for both my fish and cultures then this is where I would look, not-least because it is free, nutritious, and highly sustainable. For most non-Grindal white worms I stick with whole-grain seeded bread, oats, yoghurt and a sprinkle of yeast and a compost medium; for Grindal worms I'm still using coir like @Wookii does. I would add that one of the best way to feed Grindal worms to fish is to use a slice of red or yellow pepper, and when they crawl on, dunk it in your tank. You can freeze slices of the pepper too.

Side note: If anybody is interested in collecting native white worms and other Oligochaetes from north Wales marine littoral habitats when they are up on holiday next, feel free to drop me a line. Some of the specimens I've seen in the past grow quite large and would be interesting to culture.
 
You should try damp coconut coir - the stuff that comes in a dry block for planting house plants etc in - my Grindal worm culture has no smell what so ever, even after over 18 months in the same substrate and feeding 4-6 cat biscuits twice a week. Other than the feeding it’s literally maintenance free.
I tried this, as I was interested in having a slower-growing culture than scouring pads. I just cannot keep the sciarid flies out. I microwave the coir/soil and have my container sitting on diatomaceous earth. They must be coming in with the food.

-Ben
 
I tried this, as I was interested in having a slower-growing culture than scouring pads. I just cannot keep the sciarid flies out. I microwave the coir/soil and have my container sitting on diatomaceous earth. They must be coming in with the food.

-Ben

Do you have filter floss in any air holes? What are you feeding them? Post a pic if you have one.
 
Yes, I had a screwtop plastic container with three holes drilled in the top and filter floss covering the holes. Threw it out because I didn't want to deal with the flies.

Food: I tried enriched rice cereal first, since I knew the container was unlikely to be contaminated. But at that time, they were in too large a container. I used a small piece of cat kibble to transfer them to the smaller container described above, and fed cat food for a couple weeks until it became completely infested. As I got more flies, the worms stopped growing quickly as well.
 
Yes, I had a screwtop plastic container with three holes drilled in the top and filter floss covering the holes. Threw it out because I didn't want to deal with the flies.

Food: I tried enriched rice cereal first, since I knew the container was unlikely to be contaminated. But at that time, they were in too large a container. I used a small piece of cat kibble to transfer them to the smaller container described above, and fed cat food for a couple weeks until it became completely infested. As I got more flies, the worms stopped growing quickly as well.

I have to be honest, I'm not sure what to suggest. I've been running my two culture tubs now for two and half years on the exact same coconut coir, and feeding around 4-6 cat biscuits (which are kept in a sealed tub) every 4-5 days. I've never had any flies in the culture to date, and I can ramp worm production up or down depending on how much I feed.

These are my tubs (an old picture - they've got a bit more grime an algae on the inside nowadays). I pull the floss physically through the holes, so nothing can get in or out other than air:

upload_2020-3-13_16-57-31-jpeg.jpg
 
Hi all,
I've been running my two culture tubs now for two and half years on the exact same coconut coir, and feeding around 4-6 cat biscuits (which are kept in a sealed tub) every 4-5 days.
I'm going to have another go at this, using your technique. The moler clay cultures always have <"Drain Flies (Owl Midges)"> and the compost ones both <"Cereal mites"> and <"Sciarid flies">, and occasionally House Mites as well.

cheers Darrel
 
I have to be honest, I'm not sure what to suggest. I've been running my two culture tubs now for two and half years on the exact same coconut coir, and feeding around 4-6 cat biscuits (which are kept in a sealed tub) every 4-5 days. I've never had any flies in the culture to date, and I can ramp worm production up or down depending on how much I feed.
I think it really is a matter of ensuring there are no entry points for external larvae. The only two things I haven't controlled for are: (1) the grindal worm starter culture itself and (2) the cat food. I've maintained a fast-growing culture on scouring pads without parasites. The nice thing about that setup is that you can completely immerse the culture to separate mites, if they appear. The downside is that I can't leave them for a week without the culture crashing.
 
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