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Light colour & algae

No, I'm very much aware of that - for plants and algae in their natural habitat. But, we're trying to ensure optimum lighting for planted aquaria.

I'm not drawing any conclusions about potential shrinkage caused by blue light. I'm simply asking questions on this forum and keen to hear what others have to offer. There may well be good reasons why Dr Bugbee's findings are not applicable to our tanks.

JPC
To date, I have simply been gathering information with the view of doing meaningful tests if and when I decide to purchase an Apogee SQ 520 PAR sensor. I have a perfectly adequate spectrometer. Aquatic lighting is a subject that interests me greatly. When the company, BML were in existence (now Omron Fluence), I designed the lighting fixture that is still over one of my tanks. Recently, I discovered that Dennis Wong also started out using BML lighting.

JPC
Well, I think the first thing you need to do for your tests is to establish a control tank using basic, ordinary bulbs. That's what we here have done and that's why we, after using different bulbs, after more than a decade, can report that there has not been any meaningful differences in growth performance, regardless of the type of bulb used. The reason is that there are many more important factors influencing growth performance, such as CO2 and nutrition, that far outweigh the influence of the bulb type being used. There may be colouration differences here and there, but there will not be a measurable difference based on spectra. In fact, it would be easy to see a difference in several tanks using different spectra and to then conclude that the differences were due to spectra, when in fact, the growth differences would be caused by variations in CO2/flow/distribution between the tanks. I supposed the tests would need to be performed multiple times so that the resulting data would be statistically relevant. At the end of the day, it won't really matter.

I have no idea about the specifications of BML lighting and just because Dennis Wong is using it that does not mean it is superior to other lighting. Dennis Wong is skilled enough to grow plants successfully using whatever lighting he chooses, so again, any BML Lighting testimonial means nothing more than typical hyperbolic marketing. One first has to be able to grow plants successfully regardless of the lighting technology in order to even begin to assess the impact of any spectral conditions. Have you accomplished this? Have you consistently produced planted tanks that are problem free? Have you been able to address problems in the tank and resolve them properly? Investigation of spectra before this task is tackled is putting the cart before the horse.
It seems to me that you have had problems in your tank and have immediately decided that the cause was due to spectrum while at the same time we here at this forum were advising you that no, your problem was due to insufficient nutrient, or CO2, or other factors that needed to be addressed. You chose however to use information from other websites that specifically offered advice to the contrary. Whether your problems were resolved is not clear.

Obviously you are free to carry on any experiments you wish, using any data you gather. No one disputes that. What many here object to however, is that our advice and information is immediately discarded as being faulty in favour of information from other websites, which you report as being more reasonable. Again, you have the freedom to follow any path you desire, but we also have the freedom to dispute the validity of the data presented in those other websites. Know this however; for many years we have investigated the topic of spectra, and while I now find it a tedious, certainly others may find it fascinating as you do, but the fact remains that test methods have to be stringent and above all, the method of control is paramount. You have not yet demonstrated an ability to consistently establish a control tank, i.e., a problem free tank.

I repeat our position that a bulb's spectra has little or no bearing on plant growth or health compared to the effects of other factors in the realm of plant husbandry, such as CO2, PAR, nutrition and flow/distribution and spectra is certainly nothing that algae care about. With the exception of a few species, algal blooms are a direct result of nutritional deficiency syndromes that result in poor plant health. The species of algae that occur are a direct indicator of the deficient nutrient. Algal blooms are not a phenomenon that can be resolved by changing spectra, however, reduction of PAR has been shown to help alleviate the bloom.

Cheers,
 
Well, I think the first thing you need to do for your tests is to establish a control tank using basic, ordinary bulbs. That's what we here have done and that's why we, after using different bulbs, after more than a decade, can report that there has not been any meaningful differences in growth performance, regardless of the type of bulb used.
If you've already done controlled experiments with aquarium lighting spectrum, has anyone done a write-up of your findings? If so, may I have a copy? That would be very helpful.

The reason is that there are many more important factors influencing growth performance, such as CO2 and nutrition, that far outweigh the influence of the bulb type being used.
Did your experiments include observation of algae and Cyanobacteria growth?
One first has to be able to grow plants successfully regardless of the lighting technology in order to even begin to assess the impact of any spectral conditions. Have you accomplished this? Have you consistently produced planted tanks that are problem free?
Following on from some failures, I am now managing to grow planted tanks with success.
It seems to me that you have had problems in your tank and have immediately decided that the cause was due to spectrum while at the same time we here at this forum were advising you that no, your problem was due to insufficient nutrient, or CO2, or other factors that needed to be addressed.
Over the years, I have rarely considered the part played by lighting spectrum. Insufficient nutrient and/or CO2 has not been a problem. Excess nutrients has occasionally been an issue.
You chose however to use information from other websites that specifically offered advice to the contrary
No such choice has been made. Why would I want to use information from A N Other website? Unless I'm mistaken, the only 'website' are the YouTube videos in which Dr Bruce Bugbee discusses his scientific research on plant lighting.
What many here object to however, is that our advice and information is immediately discarded as being faulty in favour of information from other websites, which you report as being more reasonable.
Is it really the case that "many here object to..."? I'm upset to hear that. Again, I'm not sure to which "other websites" you are referring.

To be continued...

JPC
 
Interesting discussion, light spectrum is something I have played with, though only for aesthetic reasons. I personally believe it makes little difference, at least in terms that would be useful to most tanks/keepers.

Am I being judged? I just don't get it.

JPC

I find your questions etc interesting (even if I don't agree for any reason) and I don't think most here would judge you for not being able to run a problem-free tank (who can??)
 
Maybe it comes down to differences in interest @ceg4048 and @jaypeecee .
It seems to me like you two are discussing something in which your end goals are not the same, so you cant find an agreement.

Correct me if im wrong but @jaypeecee it seems to me like you really enjoy getting into the smallest details of things, and figuring out exactly how things work.
To me that is perfectly okay, I am that way myself on some aspects of the hobby, and I think there is definitely room on the forum for threads that delve deeper into things.

While @ceg4048 , I have always benefited from your ability to "seperate the coffee from the froth" so to speak, to keep me grounded in practicality when my theoretical side is veering too far into the miniscule. (But I get the impression @jaypeecee is not looking to have his coffee de-frothed 😁 )

I do think beginners should be advised to stay away from the "froth" of the coffee, you got to nail the basics before you can experiment with the small things. Its so tempting as a newbie to get lost in the tiny details thinking that is whats gonna solve your problems, when it definitely is not. At least it is from my own experience.

I think we need to remember that we all enjoy the hobby in our slightly different ways 😊
 
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Correct me if im wrong but @jaypeecee it seems to me like you really enjoy getting into the smallest details of things, and figuring out exactly how things work.
Hi @Hufsa

Yes, ever since I was 'knee high', I have been fascinated about 'what makes things tick'. My entire working life was spent in a scientific environment - optoelectronics, professional audio (Dolby Labs) and, finally, professional radio communications.

JPC
 
Interesting discussion, light spectrum is something I have played with, though only for aesthetic reasons. I personally believe it makes little difference, at least in terms that would be useful to most tanks/keepers.
Hi @Nick potts

What follows is just one of the reasons why I think there may be more to aquarium lighting than aesthetics:

I have commented previously here on UKAPS that many aquarium lights contain LEDs that emit light at 625nm (red). I've never been able to understand this choice as it corresponds to the peak sensitivity of Cyanobacteria (aka BGA). My hunch was that the red LEDs should be emitting at 660nm. This corresponds to one of the peaks of chlorophyll a. It was, therefore, with some interest that I stumbled across the following just a couple of days ago:


Finnex are not the only company that use 660nm LEDs. The German company below also use 660nm LEDs in some of their products:


Scroll down the above page until you get to the cluster configuration.

All the best.

JPC
 
I don't think most here would judge you for not being able to run a problem-free tank...
Hi again, @Nick potts

As far as I'm concerned, none of us are here to judge others' tanks. That's what competitions are for. I'm not sure how anyone would be able to judge any of my tanks. I rarely post photos of them. Most of my recent tanks (with one exception) are running experiments of one form or another. That's what I enjoy doing. One of my main focuses has been on controlling Cyanobacteria with which I have had some success. I have another experiment running right now in which I'm getting to grips with the benefit of monitoring ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential). It's exciting making new discoveries and satisfies my scientific curiosity.

JPC
 
I never had much of a Cyano problem for decades..none really until I set up aquariums that get some sunlight. This second time it got much more direct sun and I had a much more heavy growth of cyano. So,to get a handle on it...I put extra sheer curtains on the big window. Voila!..almost fixed. I also stopped weekly water changes on this big lo tech. Plants do even better since the water now had what they need. High Tech combine water changes with constant dosing. Feeding the fish is the main constant for me.
Keep the filter cleaning on a regular basis is another big help.
The one setup I have persistent algae is my zero tech shrimp bowl exposed to direct afternoon sunlight. My medium light high tech tanks have no algae, but I have the luxury of dosing excel or peroxide if I have to. The type of visible algae in my shrimp bowl is limited to thread algae (Spirogyra) which I remove by hand as I can’t use chemical that will harm shrimp. I think blue, purple and green cyno may be present in the substrate as I can see through the glass bottom, but do no harm as they are hidden underground. I pull down a plastic grid behind the bowl to cut down sunlight in the afternoon that is helpful in reducing algae growth, but not enough to eliminate.
 
Hi @Nick potts

What follows is just one of the reasons why I think there may be more to aquarium lighting than aesthetics:

I have commented previously here on UKAPS that many aquarium lights contain LEDs that emit light at 625nm (red). I've never been able to understand this choice as it corresponds to the peak sensitivity of Cyanobacteria (aka BGA). My hunch was that the red LEDs should be emitting at 660nm. This corresponds to one of the peaks of chlorophyll a. It was, therefore, with some interest that I stumbled across the following just a couple of days ago:

All the best.

JPC

I don't have the expertise to comment on that, for me it is all about how the light looks to my eyes on a particular setup.

Hi again, @Nick potts

As far as I'm concerned, none of us are here to judge others' tanks. That's what competitions are for. I'm not sure how anyone would be able to judge any of my tanks. I rarely post photos of them. Most of my recent tanks (with one exception) are running experiments of one form or another. That's what I enjoy doing. One of my main focuses has been on controlling Cyanobacteria with which I have had some success. I have another experiment running right now in which I'm getting to grips with the benefit of monitoring ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential). It's exciting making new discoveries and satisfies my scientific curiosity.

JPC

I certainly agree, this is a very friendly forum 99.9% of the time

Do keep doing what you enjoy, that's what hobbies are for, I myself enjoy setting up tanks more than I do keeping tanks running for extended periods, so that's what I tend to do :) Any insights into the dreaded cyano can only be a good thing AFAIAC.

I know ORP is something a lot of marine hobbyists measure, but this is usually as they are injecting ozone into the tanks.
 
Most of my recent tanks (with one exception) are running experiments of one form or another. That's what I enjoy doing. One of my main focuses has been on controlling Cyanobacteria with which I have had some success. I have another experiment running right now in which I'm getting to grips with the benefit of monitoring ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential). It's exciting making new discoveries and satisfies my scientific curiosity.
Hi JPC, yes, and I personally think that is very admirable - keep that curious spirit going!

Cheers,
Michael
 
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