John q
Member
Why would we close the thread? Leave it open for those that want to participate in it.Al least if we had reached a conclusion and a summary thread could be closed
Censorship is errrmmm.
Why would we close the thread? Leave it open for those that want to participate in it.Al least if we had reached a conclusion and a summary thread could be closed
Takashi Amano already knows this and he isn't concerned with being called "EI" <-- he fundamentally knows that EI is a concept and the numbers are meaningless. EI is about more than fert targets. It's about how you run a system with datums, flow management, saving money, dry salts. ADA is about a system too. I own all of Amano's books and admire him for his work in this hobby.Are you going to tell that to Takashi Amano?
Why would we close the thread? Leave it open for those that want to participate in it.
Censorship is errrmmm.
Only pulling your leg mate, 😀Sorry bad choice of words 😬
But either way I was wrong to suggest the thread should be closedOnly pulling your leg mate, 😀
Takashi Amano already knows this and he isn't concerned with being called "EI" <-- he fundamentally knows that EI is a concept and the numbers are meaningless. EI is about more than fert targets. It's about how you run a system with datums, flow management, saving money, dry salts. ADA is about a system too. I own all of Amano's books and admire him for his work in this hobby.
People who build these systems and understand them laugh and shake their head when they read about tunnel vision on nutrients. There is so much more to this game. To be honest - there's too much to understand ... and when you realize the interconnectedness off these systems you realize that we know absolutely nothing. The only way to make any headway is to consider it a dynamic system of finterconnected stuff and see how that stuff MIGHT interact under a series of constantly changing parameters.
Tom Barr knows that plants primarily get their nutrition from roots. He built EI for fun. Look at his tanks ... they use soil. And the inert ones? That's for fun and curiousity. ANYONE who scapes inert ... does 3x weekly water changes and resets to datum and dose whatever fert is sponsoring them.
Amano was curious. He built an empire and sold a system that works so people don't have to think - they can focus on art.
Literally, we get curious and want to understand why ... most just want to grow nice plants and are cheap. No one gets into dry salts because ADA doesn't work.
The plant needs to be fed ... so feed it and focus on the big picture: this is an ecosystem.
Dennis Wong exploited the need - people struggled with EI because it is hard mode because of how hard rich water column dosing is to manage -- and ADA is expensive.
Everyone knows ADA is rich dosing - but ADA without potassium doesn't work. Buy his books ... you will see every single parameter on every single tank.
Not to mention symbiotic arbuscular mycorrhiza. You’re right, we still have much to learn…“To know Mother Nature, is to love her smallest creations”… Gotta look after your bacterial assemblage. It’s running the show and we barely give it any credit.
Not to mention symbiotic arbuscular mycorrhiza. We still have much to learn…
Thank you very much for this response. It is an eye opener.Everyone knows ADA is rich dosing
The water column is lean in N and P. The substrate is rich in all (including bacteria).Thank you very much for this response. It is an eye opener.
Hmm … my gut says It would have to. Assuming anaerobic conditions in substrate … means something will change in bacterial assembly. And necessarily any root stuff … but I think that’s the crux.Has anyone found that anaerobic conditions affect plants and hence the amount of dosing needed too?
I’d agree — but it will also depend on CEC, decay, oxygen, age, surrounding roots, plant choice, water flow, light availability … affecting biodiversity …I have been thinking of late that the interaction between substrate and water might explain some of the variations we have seen across what certain plants need
Therein lies one of the biggest differences between success and failure. Horticulture and a holistic approach. I've had discussions about this recently. Of all the information available out there this is where it is lacking. Very difficult for someone to learn other than trial and error.When to intervene, how to intervene, how to cut, how much root space it prefers, whether it can survive longer periods without its preferences attended to (water column nitrate restriction), which nutrient channels to force the plant to use, speed of uptake (K), how much light relative to available areas in the system (where to plant), how close to the source of co2 it prefers to be, how much co2 fluctuation it can tolerate, when to abandon root structures and when not to (timing).
Another TPT'er! I believe this to be true. Substrate plays a bigger role long term than most think. Earlier this year I went through a period where the tank was just not right. To make a long story short I drained the tank and thoroughly cleaned the old substrate. The different was remarkable.Has anyone found that anaerobic conditions affect plants and hence the amount of dosing needed too?
We were also recently having some interesting conversations over at TPT about that until that got shut down by the moderator for 'misleading newbies'
I have been thinking of late that the interaction between substrate and water might explain some of the variations we have seen across what certain plants need
You mean the base that houses all of the microbiology and thousands of ppm of nutrition matters?! where nature has a separate physiological thing (the root) solely developed to selectively pull nutrients from is not sexy?!Another holistic not fertilizer based solution to an issue. Not as sexy to talk about as ferts, but can make a huge difference.
Yes in my opinion it has much to do with reduced O2 in the substrate for the reduced or anoxic bacteria. I know others who I very much respect who have seen the same thing. I wrote about this real time when I went through this in my journal, but sadly it's gone until I repost it somewhere.You mean the base that houses all of the microbiology and thousands of ppm of nutrition matters?! where nature has a separate physiological thing (the root) solely developed to selectively pull nutrients from is not sexy?!
I’ve been on this thread too long … I’ve become cheeky. I left for 40 pages 😂.
Hallelujah Greggz.
Christel’s book talks about substrate extensively and how the root is built for this job. It also has analysis of substrate from all of the biotopes - the tables are endless .
I hate to say but if you look through journals for over 1 year with people who don’t change the substrate, you can see the plants “change” from stunning to less stunning to really not as stunning as they were … to … time to rescape or root tab … but root tabs only go so far .. eventually you need to get those organics and that pH back to where it needs to be for optimization.
In my latest tank I experimented with deep substrate at least 4 inches deliberately to create anaerobic conditions and lightly planted with much of the surface uncovered. Near the glass where I do have plants the roots are deep and white but I cannot believe that this action alone would be enough to oxygenate much. dosing is very low. we know at least about bacteria and redox but I bet there is more to it than that. Can you compensate with ferts? yes of course. but where's the fun in thatIf the root isn’t oxygenating … turn up your lights and probably your co2 (as it is the likely culprit for jamming the system) … this assumes you’ve already leaned out N and P in the column and are feeding fish well to produce good urea and ammonia …
If you have anaerobic pockets and no roots, the whole thing is probably moot … I mean it’s just a pocket of bacteria? Probably will have some pseudo allelopathic or electromagnetic effect but i bet not anything we could change with dosing regime … maybe plant choice like putting crypts instead of ludwigia … or repens instead of riccia as example.
Ex TPT'er. I will no longer participate in a forum which censors people's views and allows only comments agreeing with the moderator whilst advertising itself as a public members forum.Another TPT'er!
Well I have to say you summed it pretty well and I completely agree. It was not just me, but was happening over and over again.Ex TPT'er. I will no longer participate in a forum which censors people's views and allows only comments agreeing with the moderator whilst advertising itself as a public members forum.
In my latest tank I experimented with deep substrate at least 4 inches deliberately to create anaerobic conditions and lightly planted with much of the surface uncovered. Near the glass where I do have plants the roots are deep and white but I cannot believe that this action alone would be enough to oxygenate much. dosing is very low. we know at least about bacteria and redox but I bet there is more to it than that. Can you compensate with ferts? yes of course. but where's the fun in that
Well if you give it enough time and don't disturb the substrate it will become anaerobic as oxygen is unable to access the lower parts due to compaction. You can then actually see black patches appear when that happens.My tank substrate is 4.7 inches - not deliberately but the result of an accumulating of 10 years worth of substrate. 😅 How does one check whether conditions at the bottom are anaerobic? I disturb the top half of the substrate weekly when I insert osmocote (about 2 inches into the substrate)...