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Issues with BBA! where am I going wrong??

Planted Bows

Planted Bows

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2015
Messages
414
Location
Loughborough
Hi all,

As title says Im having some prolonged issues with BBA.

So I had a 30litre tank before and had it spot on without any algae at all! I then upgraded to a 60litre with the same photo period etc.

What I have realised is it takes alot longer to get the dc in this tank to go green so I have played around with the on/off time of my co2.

Currently co2 comes on at 4pm and lights on at 6pm then co2 off at 9pm and lights off at 10:30pm. Co2 is around 2bps.

I did have the lights on for longer but reduced it by 1 hour as I thought that could be the issue.

The BBA has gotten worse and I seem to be fighting a loosing battle here.

Whats the ideal combo for co2 and light together? Is there such a thing?

Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
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Put some black mollys in...they graze on it. Or you can use hydrogen peroxide on it, 3% proof. If you can only get 6%, mix it with distilled water 50/50. Medicine syringe and spray on infected area. Most chemists sell it

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Black molly will not really reduce BBA. Black molly are great for surface film build-up and they are one of few fish that can consume cyano. Siamese algae eaters actually do an amazing job eating BBA. Get 1 for every 50 litre if you have an outbreak, 2 if it's severe.
By the look of the algae and plant health you most likely have too much light intensity (PAR) for your CO2 and slow growing plants, too much organics and your fert dosing far from optimal.
 
Planted Bows said:
Whats the ideal combo for co2 and light together? Is there such a thing?
Click to expand...
Yes, there is such a thing but nobody wants to hear the answer.
The answer is low light and stable CO2, which a) is not popular because everyone wants bright lights and b) CO2 stability is very difficult to achieve.

I would advise against using fish to solve any algae problem. Fish do not know anything about algae except whether it tastes good - and it only tastes good if you do not feed them.

If you do not have plants that are sensitive to liquid carbon then it would be a good idea to daily dose the bottle recommenced or even twice the recommended. That will go a long way in kicking the BBA in the groin and it will effectively increase the CO2 uptake. After several days, if the dosing is consistent and if the concentration is high enough, you will see the BBA turn pink .

At the same time, if possible, the light intensity should be reduced.

For a permanent solution, you'll have to investigate the effectiveness of your CO2 technique as well as your flow/distribution technique.

Start by taking pH measurements at 30 minute interval from the time you turn on the gas to the time you turn on the lights. The general idea is to achieve nearly a 1 pH unit drop during this time. The DC should be a bright lime green or nearly yellow when lights come on.

You can continue to take pH readings throughout the photoperiod and the goal is that the pH should be at its lowest on or around the time that the lights go on. If you overshoot a little, this is OK, but if the lowest pH occurs far into the photoperiod (like several hours) then you have to make timing and bubble rate adjustments. This is very time consuming and that's why continuing to use the liquid carbon is essential.

You'll also need to ensure that your filter outlets as well as any supplemental pumps such as Koralia are all pointed in the same direction and are all working together and are not criss crossing.

It is unclear how you are dissolving CO2. Is it an in-line unit or is it in-tank? If it is in-tank then you should consider porting the gas to the filter inlet.

You should also perform frequent and MASSIVE water changes, like 2 or 3 50%-90% or more changes per week. Always dose nutrients and definitely liquid carbon immediately after the water change.

Any leaves that are severely affected should be removed.

After the changes are made you can gradually reduce the liquid carbon dosage over the following weeks to see if the changes are effective.

Depending on lighting levels, you may always get some tufts on rocks or wood but it is most important to avoid getting them on the leaves.

Anubias does not really care for bright lighting so it is always going to be a challenge to keep them algae free under strong lighting.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Yes, there is such a thing but nobody wants to hear the answer.
The answer is low light and stable CO2, which a) is not popular because everyone wants bright lights and b) CO2 stability is very difficult to achieve.

I would advise against using fish to solve any algae problem. Fish do not know anything about algae except whether it tastes good - and it only tastes good if you do not feed them.

If you do not have plants that are sensitive to liquid carbon then it would be a good idea to daily dose the bottle recommenced or even twice the recommended. That will go a long way in kicking the BBA in the groin and it will effectively increase the CO2 uptake. After several days, if the dosing is consistent and if the concentration is high enough, you will see the BBA turn pink .

At the same time, if possible, the light intensity should be reduced.

For a permanent solution, you'll have to investigate the effectiveness of your CO2 technique as well as your flow/distribution technique.

Start by taking pH measurements at 30 minute interval from the time you turn on the gas to the time you turn on the lights. The general idea is to achieve nearly a 1 pH unit drop during this time. The DC should be a bright lime green or nearly yellow when lights come on.

You can continue to take pH readings throughout the photoperiod and the goal is that the pH should be at its lowest on or around the time that the lights go on. If you overshoot a little, this is OK, but if the lowest pH occurs far into the photoperiod (like several hours) then you have to make timing and bubble rate adjustments. This is very time consuming and that's why continuing to use the liquid carbon is essential.

You'll also need to ensure that your filter outlets as well as any supplemental pumps such as Koralia are all pointed in the same direction and are all working together and are not criss crossing.

It is unclear how you are dissolving CO2. Is it an in-line unit or is it in-tank? If it is in-tank then you should consider porting the gas to the filter inlet.

You should also perform frequent and MASSIVE water changes, like 2 or 3 50%-90% or more changes per week. Always dose nutrients and definitely liquid carbon immediately after the water change.

Any leaves that are severely affected should be removed.

After the changes are made you can gradually reduce the liquid carbon dosage over the following weeks to see if the changes are effective.

Depending on lighting levels, you may always get some tufts on rocks or wood but it is most important to avoid getting them on the leaves.

Anubias does not really care for bright lighting so it is always going to be a challenge to keep them algae free under strong lighting.

Cheers,
Click to expand...
So I have so bad BBA in anubius but when I dim my light it looks unsightly so prefer to have it on full blast. I will reduce lighting to 60% my other is I have my co2 come on 2 hours before and my DC is green when lights come on, however I worry that if my DC was lime green to yellow then surely that would cause breathing issues for the livestock right? I bang my head against a brick wall all the time trying to Dial in my co2 but struggle on this 60litre tank :(

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Planted Bows said:
I bang my head against a brick wall all the time trying to Dial in my co2 but struggle on this 60litre tank :(
Click to expand...
Yes, I realize that. Remember, I'm not promising you a rose garden. I'm only offering you the truth.
If you perform the Excel treatment as I mentioned, that will attack the black tufts and will turn them pink.

Planted Bows said:
So I have so bad BBA in anubius but when I dim my light it looks unsightly so prefer to have it on full blast
Click to expand...
This is not logical. I'm certain my Vulcan friends would argue this.
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Planted Bows said:
I worry that if my DC was lime green to yellow then surely that would cause breathing issues for the livestock right?
Click to expand...
Yes, this is a valid concern, and that's why you'll need to experiment with the bubble rate during a weekend or when you have the time to constantly monitor the fish. If you have a bubble counter you can make tiny adjustments to the injection rate and monitor the pH of the tank or the color of the DC while you monitor the response of the fish. This method requires patience.

Again, this is a direct consequence of having "full blast", so you either live with the algae or you take the proper measures to reduce it.
As I mentioned, the fault may be occurring as a result of the injection rate, the timing, the lighting level, the flow distribution, the injection technique, or any combination thereof, so you need to investigate all possibilities.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Again, this is a direct consequence of having "full blast", so you either live with the algae or you take the proper measures to reduce it.
As I mentioned, the fault may be occurring as a result of the injection rate, the timing, the lighting level, the flow distribution, the injection technique, or any combination thereof, so you need to investigate all possibilities.
Click to expand...

@ceg4048 out of curiosity mate, do you ever knock co2 off and restart it again during the co2 period? Reading through your post and knowing how difficult it is to get the co2 part right I'm just wondering if that's something you ever do? The reason I ask is I've carried out the above tests mainly as a folly but I don't have algae issues and plant growth is ok. In this tank in particular the following happens...

Co2 profile.png


Apologies for some misleading information but on the bottom axis 1 is 2pm 7 is actually 5pm and the rest is in 30min increments. 17 being 10pm, that's quite a significant rise at that point but I guess by then the plants have had their fill of co2 by then anyway and when my surface is gently rippling and lights on I suspect a leap up would be expected.
I also have two lights, the first one is dim for half a hour just so the fish don't startle and give the plants a chance to start going with the main light coming on at 5.30 at 50% which jumps up in time with peak co2 between 7 and 9 at 100% Same thing at wind down lights gradually fade out at 11pm down to 50% main light out 11.30 then original start light out at 12

So I miss my target slightly but lights aren't full on by then so not so much of a worry, I hit target when all lights are at 100%. That would tell me that I should either start injection sooner or up the injection rate. The problem is there as soon as my ph hits around 6.4 to 6.5 my Blue Rams will hang at the surface gasping usually around 8pm for the last half hour of injection then quickly recover as soon as co2 is off at 8.30.

Coming back to the original question, do you ever knock off co2 so for instance upping the injection to hit target earlier but in a way that the co2 never drops below a certain point or in my case the uncomfortable zone seems to be about 6.5 for fish. Obviously once co2 is on you have no control over the bubble rate from then and if getting co2 right by lights causes it to be too low later would it make sense to maybe have the timer knock it off for say 15min just to prevent that?
 
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Nice graph but 8hrs to get to optimal pH!!! that's 4hrs into the photo period, no expect myself OFC, but think maybe a higher injection rate with a higher surface agitation may be needed to attain stable [CO2]. Plus how many points in the tank are you taking the pH reading from. I move my probe all over tank to check its constistant. Obviously Clive's the 'Man' on CO2. Just joining in so I can learn too ;)
 
AverageWhiteBloke said:
do you ever knock off co2 so for instance upping the injection to hit target earlier but in a way that the co2 never drops below a certain point or in my case the uncomfortable zone seems to be about 6.5 for fish. Obviously once co2 is on you have no control over the bubble rate from then and if getting co2 right by lights causes it to be too low later would it make sense to maybe have the timer knock it off for say 15min just to prevent that?
Click to expand...
Hi mate,
I haven't done that in the past because I didn't have a programmable timer or a pH controller to do that and it would get too complicated, although there is nothing wrong with doing that and it is a good idea.

If, as you mention, when the lights come on you do not blast the tank and just gently ramp the lighting then it does give you more margin for error.

Another way around this is to manipulate the filter output or spraybar output to get a little surface agitation. That's what I've done. Pointing the spraybar a little upwards or raising it so that it just touches the surface can work. Others have used air pumps with air stones on a timer to degas and prevent oversaturation, so there are a variety of ways but none of them perfect or foolproof.

As you noted, the goal is to have the minimum pH at the lights on and presumably, as the plants start using CO2, if the uptake rate exceeds the dissolution rate then the pH should start to rise.

I would love it if someone could invent a regulator with a programmable bubble rate!

Cheers,
 
Zeus. said:
Nice graph but 8hrs to get to optimal pH!!!
Click to expand...

That's my point mate I think, If I was to up injection then at some point I'm going to hit somewhere the fish don't like, just earlier but there will still be some time left when ideally i should be injecting co2. It seems like I can't have it both ways.
 
Yeah, you'll need to examine the injection method or distribution method. 8 hours is over the top.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Hi mate,
I haven't done that in the past because I didn't have a programmable timer or a pH controller to do that and it would get too complicated, although there is nothing wrong with doing that and it is a good idea.
Click to expand...

Nothing too techy here Clive, mainly manual. The first light just comes on on a timer and stays on throughout, 2nd Light comes on on a timer at 50%, I manually switch the light up to 100% around 7pm then knock it of around 9pm, and then they both just knock themselves off on the timers again. Rinse and repeat :) Who needs programmable paraphernalia when we have opposable thumbs.

So upping surface agitation as well as increasing injection might be the answer. Hmm interesting, I use a lilly pipe which is just above the surface and a skimmer so my surface is quite broken up for exchange but It's something i will have a look at thanks. Can't get my head around increasing both for some reason. You would have thought one would counter the other but as with most things in this hobby things often defy our logic.

My DC's two of, in the worst places I think co2 would be never are lime at lights on, two hours later yes so I sort of factor that in. I've never reached the proposed one point drop ever. My fish which are far better indicators than my ph pen just won't have that at all. In the case of the DC's that's just co2 on it's way out so I would assume going off them it could do with being a bit higher. The optimum bit is based on 30ppm at kh 3.5 but it's just a figure so I had a straight line to put on the graph and not cast in stone. My water is weird though, v, soft and alkaline out the tap around KH 1 and 7.3PH artificially raised by my water authority.

Just thought the easy option to prevent hitting uncomfortable whilst getting on target for lights would be at some point knock it off for a short while. Due to the surface agitation it might just level out and prevent that final drop the fish don't like.

Food for thought though, as I say no co2 related issues so maybe I should use the if its not broke don't try and fix it approach.
 
I do have a programmable controller with twin CO2 injections and reactors. with pH controler. Both on about 50mins pre photo. Gets it to within 0.2 of optimal pH. Then one injection shuts down. One on constant rate then for most of photoperiod. Get a slow decrease in pH over rest of photoperiod about 0.2. I ignore the actual reading just the change as probes fluctuate so there actual reading is irrelivent IMO. Gone off using the pH controler except for initial boosting, as I think the pH controler gives different [CO2] throughout the week so it's never really constant. Just my opinion ofc, I'm the Noob.
Only been running current CO2 setup a few weeks and on holiday ATM
 
ceg4048 said:
Yeah, you'll need to examine the injection method or distribution method. 8 hours is over the top.
Click to expand...

Optimum levels for me based on the numbers we use for indicators roughly coincide with the point my fish don't seem to like. Or the Rams anyway, maybe I should stop using the fish has an indicator as they may just be co2 sensitive. Being the biggest fish in there though you would have thought they would be the first to complain.
 
Planted Bows said:
I have my co2 come on 2 hours before and my DC is green when lights come on, however I worry that if my DC was lime green to yellow then surely that would cause breathing issues for the livestock right?
Click to expand...

Apologies to @Planted Bows for jumping all over your post but I think we are talking the same thing. Getting injection right at lights on can cause ph to keep dropping after causing problems with your livestock. However, you only suspect problems rather than see them so injecting more co2 might help. Liquid carbon will definitely help smooth out any co2 issues, blasting BBA with it also will kill it off but more importantly is keeping the tank clean. As you can tell from my post green DC's aren't always the best way of knowing this, they just give an idea if your heading in the right direction, the plants and algae have the final say. The plants you have there are slow growers and almost inevitable to get some algae, the reason you don't notice on other plants is we tend to trim the before they have chance for BBA to be visible.

I don't really get BBA other than on hardscape which I usually blast with LC now and again and my DC's aren't lime at lights on but I do regularly clean my water and filters.
 
Zeus. said:
I got my fish up at the top also. If I feed them at that time they darted for food. Then some passed out and recovered. Just one species others was fine. So just raised the pH a bit. Fish fine and over 1.0 pH drop
Click to expand...

Great we have all these ways to check if our co2 is right and none of them seem to work eh :D I'll have to ask the plants and see what they say.
 
Zeus. said:
I got my fish up at the top also. If I feed them at that time they darted for food. Then some passed out and recovered. Just one species others was fine. So just raised the pH a bit. Fish fine and over 1.0 pH drop
Click to expand...
Co2 is a fine line we are walking mate. I've probably wrongly used the word optimum when I shouldn't have. Different tanks need different amounts so I just used 30ppm. Nothing to say that my tank actually needs that much, the graph could actually be saying my co2 levels were fine for my setup at lights on but a bit later it was a bit too much for my fish. Lights actually come on at five so although they're not at their highest setting I presume co2 content is adequate by then. The graph also doesn't really illustrate the PH numbers either, there is not much between the numbers on the half hour tests.

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Sorry hit reply by mistake :) Was saying my water is soft so takes little to drop ph. one thing I will investigate though that's crossed my mind is my inline diffuser seems to start slow then pick up speed through the period. I maybe give it a bleach clean tomorrow and see if the bubble rate is more consistent. Perhaps this would explain the last minute sudden drop my fish don't like. However that still doesn't get me away from the fact that the numbers we supposedly need to hit cause discomfort to my fish so how quick I get there shouldn't make a difference and in my tanks the fish take priority all day long. I would rather lower lighting if this is the case.

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