I wasn't going to post....

[LondonDragon]

.... but some things need to be cleared up here!

Putting all the blame on Tim is not the right move here (he did f'up things here this week but cut some slack), ever since I made Tim admin he always asked to see the accounts and was not shown them, that has been brewing for a while and I did point this out to the Founders that it will be an issue going forward if no transparency. To be honest I am the tech guy and always wanted to be just the tech guy with minimal moderation, also I did not care for the accounts ( I do have a degree in Accouting and Finance, I did offer to help but was told it was under control, so I don't care), I trusted the person doing them, but I was blind to them and no idea if what I was being told was facts or not, we will soon find out anyway! BTW Dan was instrumental is getting the initial funding for UKAPS, and funding for every event we did over the last 15 years! in the UK and abroad!

Over the last two years we had an influx of troublesome members that have pushed the boundaries of what UKAPS is all about, this has taken a toll on all of us here moderating the forum, specially Tim and Geoff that have been more at the forefront of it, it is mentally draining at times dealing with this s*it, I didn't always agree with all of it, but for a consensus I went with most of it and a lot of the time I ended up cleaning a lot of the mess on UKAPS, some you guys didn't even realise.

I did point out to Tim various times that he is taking stuff too personally at times and becoming emotional with it all, I am busy and the work behind the scenes takes a lot of time on a monthly basis, to keep the server always patched, running the latest operating system, software packages, forum scripts, forum addons, so UKAPS doesn't get security exposures and prone to hacks, ensure backups are taken daily, restoring backups once a quarter on my private server to ensure in the event of a disaster I can recover UKAPS and minimal data is lost. I do not have time to read most posts on UKAPS these days and let alone perform heavy moderation, its not what I signed up for.

It is very easy to critise the Team when things go wrong, or when we have to act and take actions and ban people or warn people! But all you have to do is log in ask questions, reply to questions, have a banter (even if at our expense at times) and go on your way! We here have to endure it on a daily basis, trust me it is F'ing mentally draining on all of us at times! Don't just blame us, you guys also have a responsibility to keep UKAPS peaceful and safe, and some of you have been a-holes this week! Can you imagine some of those people in charge of anything? God save us all.

I warned the Founders and Admins, and lately the team that I was going to call it quits at some stage, due to the toxic behaviour of members and the way some things were being moderated, I had even discussed this with some members (Darrel one of them). Tim has been doing the Admin of the forum side and is well capable of doing it, so I created a separate admin account and said when I step down I will keep helping out where is needed until you are happy with it all, also doing the server side, I did give Tim access to all of it recently, he might have got a little overwhelmed with it all.

When Tim became officially the sole Admin, he started to press for the finances and Dan didn't budge, like I said before a clash of two personalities! Tim told me he would go public and I did say "you will kill UKAPS", but people have to know, resolve it with the Founders, but the founders have been where? nowhere also! So they are to blame in this also. He published it and I said "you killed UKAPS" .

What happened after that was a s*it show! Members pushing the buttons because they can, and feel that they are entitled to it. Accusing people of all sorts of stuff regardless of any truths on anything. It's easy to say stuff when you are seating behind a computer! But when I asked for people to step up and taking charge of our social media, or look after the plant database, did anyone step up? Yeah always the same people that are already doing other jobs! I spent hours and hours on that plant database, no one even offered to help when I asked for it, community you say, right? I put in 13 and a half years of work here, did I ask for a penny in return? Some mods have been here just as long, some more active than others. yes the members make the content but some of us have to keep the lights on!

A lot of this stuff has been brewing up here, and the toxicity from some members towards the team is f'ing unbelievable! So you have yourselves to blame here too! I am pretty sure out of all of those that criticised this week, very few or none actually offered to do anything about it, for some it's a F'ing joke all of this!

Anyway I am sick and tired of opinionated people without any context! If you have nothing better to say just shut the F up!

A lot of this happened so quickly, and to be honest I am worried about Tim's mental state, I worked with him for so long, he did go on a bender yesterday for some reason, I still don't understand that, was it the power? was it emotion? some very erratic decisions were being made and touching things that he didn't need to touch, if he is unstable he needs help not bashing. I did not expect things to escalate this quickly, it was a rollercoster ride!

The Team are dealing with this, I am not part of the Team any longer and I am trying to keep out of it as much as I can, I have been asked to step in and help, but I need to see a plan, I need to see the finances, and I need to know what is wanted of me! At the moment I am happily retired and watching from the sidelines, but this has upset me greatly! Just chill out, give the team some time, let things cool down, check up on Tim make sure he is OK, at the end of the day we just need a couple of treasurers, legalise the accounts and someone to look after the tech side of things! F'hell is that simple! Oh yeah and you guys to behave too! that helps! It's just a forum here we all have lives to live too!

UKAPS was a very friendly place, the dynamic has changed as forums are closing and everyone is ending up here! Its not fair some of you do not respect US the TEAM! I try to keep a cool head most of the time but this also has been very upsetting for me! This should be a safe haven for people from any age, gender, background, whatever! (BTW I was called an immigrant scum lately too by a member!)

At the end of the day we have a responsibility for the safety of the members and look after our Sponsors. The Sponsors don't even make the most out of the forum at times, I bet most just trust and want to help the Team.

Anyway my rant is over, I want what is the best for UKAPS, I have worked hard on this and so have the rest of the Team, inc Tim, regardless of what has unfolded here over the last week. So respect people first of all, no one is getting rich out of this forum, only the members through its content!

Have a good night! my football team did well today and I am looking to more drama on the pitch not on UKAPS, and I am going on holiday next week too! Just in time!

 

[Zeus.]

Too tied to read have just sent Paulo what I have sent all the Mods in the tread I started

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

Needed to be said. Will leave it at that. Thank you for your honesty Paulo, we appreciate you.

 

[Hanuman]

Some other things need to be cleared up as well because all this seem pretty one sided.

All this is insightful and I sympathize with you Paulo but I honestly do not think all the blame is on Tim nor the members with opinions. Far from it in fact. Tim simply screwed up at some point probably due to all the pressure he had, and that's about it. In my book his last action is just the top of the iceberg. You described the rest, which is pretty much what I had thought the situation was.

But the main question that still remains is where was the "team", more pricesly, the moderation team, when Tim decided to leave and UKAPS had no more head. I think I never saw a single comment from any of the moderators trying to solve/moderate the situation or take control over the forum and act as a unit, hence why some members came out trying to help. Once this happened and @Zeus. took some initiative for the sake of the community, @Geoffrey Rea, decided to have a go at him in the most savage way. Mere members seemed to be more concerned about the situation than Geoffrey/moderators were prior his intervention, at least that's what it looks like from a public point of view, to me at least. Remember that admins stepped down and the forum was left with no head. Dan not being interested in running things and George basically brushing all financial responsabilities on Dan in hopes of a resolution. Maybe no one saw this, but George did make a long post initially which gave me goosbumps (not in the positive way). He then edited it very shortly after (probably realizing the inappropriateness of some comments) to make the post that is today. That initial post just showed me how he was not really interested in any of this and basically all financial issues should be resolved by Dan. The post even had a joke in it despite the seriousness of the situation.

I respect those running the forum and I know by experience what it entails since I also have to go through all the BS myself on the forum I run. However everyone has it share of responsability in what has unfolded, the moderation team having a good share of it as well. Zeus merely started some sort of reboot and talks with Dan and opened the doors for people, including moderators to step up since the communication seemed severed betwen founders and Tim. Instead he gets this absolute absurbe diatribe from Geoffrey telling members that some "private deals" was going on and that there was a "power grab" while blaming everyone for how all this unfolded. I felt that as a profund insult to Zeus and the community overall when at the same time the "team" didn't seem to be doing anything at all about what was going on, else we would not have reached this point. Geoffrey, you thought it was also fine to victimize yourself and the moderating team by stating you were being excluded from the whole discussion. But again where were you from the begining? The moderation team should have reacted much faster the moment Tim stepped down. I also suggested the threads to be closed earlier as they were spirling out of control, yet I was told by Tim that this was against the spirit of UKPAS. Again moderation team, where were you? I see where you are now, closing all threads disccussing about this situation, understandbly so. At least Zeus' intervention had the consequence of some moving their arses. Maybe that's what you guys needed to finally take action.

Geoffrey, no one was being executed out as you so candidly put it. Instead of praising Zeus and others for their efforts you decided to shoot the messenger. We are all volunteers here, even us mere mortal members who answer posts and also help people one way or another. Zeus and myself also helped massively the forum with the introduction of the IFC Calculator, which I was told by Tim at some point, generated quite a lot of visits and interest in UKPAS, but we don't expect anything in returm. We don't feel entitled.

Zeus and others did not try to exclude anyone IMO but unfortunately he got lambasted and dragged in a power struggle that has left many people bitter about how this was handled. Me included.

An admin is dearly needed now and a reshuffle of the moderation team as well IMO. No one is irreplacable and perhaps adding some new blood wouldn't hurt as well.

To conclude, this is not meant to attack anyone but rather for us all to reflect on our actions.

 

[Onoma1]

Watching this unfold is particularly painful.

I have the utmost respect for all of the team supporting the forum. I am grateful for the ethos of openess and mutual respect within the forum which has been created by Tim, Zeus, and all of those engaging with the forum. The forum is a particularly special place.

I was, to be clear simply amazed at the amount of work that Paolo has put into keeping this forum running on an unpaid basis.

Things said in anger or actions taken when hurt need to be forgotten and forgiven. Tim, Zeus and Geoffrey (among others) have provided many thousands of posts which demonstrate that they are decent and balanced individuals. Please could all posts in which admin members reflect negatively on others be removed? It is not conducive to reconciliation nor is it helpful to individuals identity to have a public record of the disintegration of trust between the team running this forum.

This whole situation is not of their creation and seems to have occurred because the society lacks governance structures or any form of accountability. Tim quite correctly raised this.

If this isn't addressed this type of crisis will reoccur.

The issue of financial transparency is a symptom of this lack of governance. It is clear that those that will need to respond to sponsors and HMRC seem absent and do not seem to have attempted to descalate this situation. This is, to put it mildly disappointing.

This could have been avoided if it had been stated and demonstrated that individuals had not been gaining unreported financial benefit from the UKAPS. This is in the context of their representation of the forum as a not for profit organisation (using unpaid labour to maintain it) while also soliciting monies.

 

[AlecF]

I second that. You all have our support, however varied your positions, and however hurt you feel just now. It would help if you all stopped posting, resolved the issues, take clear decisions, and then report back. We all know how much work you all do, and we all appreciate it. These things happen in amateur groups, especially those run by mainly men, and there's little point blaming anyone for how that unfolds, except to see how key certain people are, and how things fall apart rapidly. In the end most of what you all do is unpaid, or hardly paid. Take down all the posts, we don't need to hear each of you, we'd rather you talked to one another and found the right way forward. Invite people to help, when you are at this stage. It is now time to work towards reconciliation and stop blaming.

 

[G H Nelson]

Dear Members
I would just like to say action was taken by a Global Moderation Team member as soon as Tim Harrison resigned as Adminstrator on Tuesday!

 

[LondonDragon]

Too tied to read have just sent Paulo what I have sent all the Mods in the tread I started

I have seen what was sent, the team have a life too, and need time to figure out what happened between Tim and Dan (since this was not a team discussion), and there were two streams of conversation, one the Team figuring out what had unfolded and another Zeus speaking to Dan about a possible handover and restructuring the Team even before the Team had a chance to breath! Geoff was upset and rightly so too!
There has been some figures flying around from conversation with Zeus and Dan, looks like there is almost double of what I thought was in the pot, so actually donations must be pretty decent and Dan and George didn't go on a bender after all (no Lambo in sight)!
Another member of the team also has spoken to an accountant to sort out the financial side, I have been told, for a small fee and might even be able to write it off, bonus! Yes looks like Dan was naive in managing the funds

Although I stepped down as Admin officially, like I said I was still doing the tech side of the forum, and all this noise about Dan shutting down the server nonsense and I just stepped away from UKAPS duties publicly (people can still do things in the background without the need for any tittles or badges, I told Tim lets wait until the end of the summer and see where we are).

The Team need to discuss this and yes if more help is needed ask for it now, maybe this was necessary for a wake up call, how good people actually had it for years, I did take this forum on myself for about 10 years pretty much on my own, and managed the Team on their advice also, before I brought Tim on as admin, did I moan about it? Did the forum crumble?

The first big reply on this thread highlights what I said in the first post! Yet there was a need to rumble on again for some reason! Yes a lot of members contribute here, that's what makes UKAPS, UKAPS! If you have nothing to say positively on this thread don't!

 

[castle]

All seems fair, and I echo @AlecF now; if you can all get on the same page, and sort out the org structure (uk entity?) I think this could all be put to bed.

It’s very reassuring to know that the kitty is bigger than you thought too.

Some ideas I’d like to see in future;

• analytics driven rewards for best post/thread of the year (could be a voucher to an aquarium shop?) I really like the idea that 20% of profit is divided proportionally across n number of thread starters?
• featured journals? The old set feel very old guard, and a bit clicky 😉
• hardscape contests to return (yearly would be nice) would be nice to do a yearly uk native biotope?

-

It’s a cross between user appreciation and community growth.

We talked before publicly about helping with content Paulo, I reaffirm I would be happy to help with content databases but they have to be open source 👍👍 how we do that with plant/fish dbs could be fun haha.

 

[castle]

Please don’t lock every thread mods, people will want to discuss this stuff; and if this is to be a society/co-op/cic etc, this stuff does need to come to the top.

Create a signed in forum for members over n posts where this can be discussed without be indexed perhaps?

 

[seedoubleyou]

I think it’s just fair to say that the whole situation unfolded rather quickly and by surprise.
Mods were a little slow in taking action on damage mitigation and us members jumped straight in.
It’s been poorly handled by everyone, we’re all guilty.
Finger finger pointing, character bashing or telling people to “shut the F*** Up” at this point won’t resolve anything.

I’ll be the first to apologise for my role in adding fuel to any fire, it wasn’t intended to stir trouble but only to gain answers where some big questions had been asked.

I’ve got huge respect for all those that have helped in keeping the UKAPs ship sailing smoothly so far. I don’t have the personality for it, so you all have my respect.

 

[LondonDragon]

analytics driven rewards for best post/thread of the year (could be a voucher to an aquarium shop?) I really like the idea that 20% of profit is divided proportionally across n number of thread starters?

This is always open to interpretation, and can cause tension (why is my money being given to someone else). Last time the funds build up to a certain level we decided to host Aquascaping Experience, but that also needed a lot of extra funding from Aquatic Manufacturers that Dan worked hard to source!

featured journals? The old set feel very old guard, and a bit clicky

We always said to members to report journals for featured! It's been static, nothing stops someone creating a thread with a poll of a few posts every month/week for members to vote? Do you need to have a title to do that? It's a community after all like people keep saying!

hardscape contests to return (yearly would be nice) would be nice to do a yearly uk native biotope?

Yes we need volunteers to do this too, we did one for AE and it was painful to organize and judge, Tim then did one and it was equally painful with not much help!

We talked before publicly about helping with content Paulo,

Talking is fine, actions is what we need! Like people moan about the articles being old, anyone can take it rewrite them and submit a new one! Anyone can write new articles and submit, some will make it to the menu some won't!

Please don’t lock every thread mods, people will want to discuss this stuff;

This thread was locked and I asked the Team to unlock it for that purpose!

Sometimes it's easier to help than you think, but people seem to want titles in order to do anything, or get something in return, I am not saying everyone but a lot of those who can are after that. You don't need a title or a badge to help or offer help. You can do it publicly, you can PM a member of the team, is that simple!

 

[Oldguy]

I am very sorry to hear about these problems and know nothing about what happens behind the scenes.
For me I found UKAPS to be a very friendly forum with lots of sound positive help and advice.
All hobbies and interest groups have rivet counters and stitch nazis, just need a large pinch of salt, but nothing should be personal.
I hope that things can settle down and hurts healed.

 

[LondonDragon]

For me I found UKAPS to be a very friendly forum with lots of sound positive help and advice.

Yes the team works hard to keep it that way! That must say something about the team overall!!

 

[castle]

This is always open to interpretation, and can cause tension (why is my money being given to someone else). Last time the funds build up to a certain level we decided to host Aquascaping Experience, but that also needed a lot of extra funding from Aquatic Manufacturers that Dan worked hard to source!

We always said to members to report journals for featured! It's been static, nothing stops someone creating a thread with a poll of a few posts every month/week for members to vote? Do you need to have a title to do that? It's a community after all like people keep saying!

Yes we need volunteers to do this too, we did one for AE and it was painful to organize and judge, Tim then did one and it was equally painful with not much help!


Talking is fine, actions is what we need! Like people moan about the articles being old, anyone can take it rewrite them and submit a new one! Anyone can write new articles and submit, some will make it to the menu some won't!


This thread was locked and I asked the Team to unlock it for that purpose!

Sometimes it's easier to help than you think, but people seem to want titles in order to do anything, or get something in return, I am not saying everyone but a lot of those who can are after that. You don't need a title or a badge to help or offer help. You can do it publicly, you can PM a member of the team, is that simple!

Ah, hence why I said analytics; G4A will give very decent insights into this stuff. It is a bit subjective, but page views/engagement is fairly telling.

I think for me, giving additional time/resources to help this forum was never offered by me as the society/for profit ideas were never clear.

Probably just need a sticky in featured journals saying, please vote/pm/comment for other journals you think should be featured. (Not a locked thread?)

I dunno, there is a clear gap between moderator and community member, both sides feels more can be done 😩🤦😉

 

[LondonDragon]

Probably just need a sticky in featured journals saying, please vote/pm/comment for other journals you think should be featured. (Not a locked thread?)

Introducing Featured Journals

Introducing - Featured Journals Hi all, The objective behind this Featured Journals sub-forum is to showcase the best journals created by UKAPS Members. We hope that this will maintain and encourage further the excellent quality of journals on the UKAPS Forum. Qualities of a Featured...

www.ukaps.org

Its locked, like I say nothing stops you opening one! This is for information purposes!The featured Journals was my idea! Maybe was not the right approach! maybe just leave it in the normal Journals section and just apply a Prefix or multiple to it! always open to suggestions!

 

[Zeus.]

Dear all concerned.

Its been a perfect storm and nobody is to blame, let's put the handbags down, I was dragged into this as the call came and I stepped up, I focused on trying to save the forum we all love, I tried to contacted members who was online, it was few at the time, but I tried and tried, not slept much till last night since I got involved and sick of typing on laptop.
I am concerned about Tim, if I seemed cold I was lacking sleep after many many hours on PC receiving/sending pm's /posting etc (Did I mention my dads TIA and operation - hes doing well))
happy to have a chat over phone with some/group/ where a can pass my part in this over in full, then I can get back to catching the mole in my garden.

Keep on scaping

Thanks for all the supportive pms from all member's with offers of help/advise etc

Love Zeus. xxx

 

[LondonDragon]

I am concerned about Tim,

After blocking me last Thursday night, he replied this morning, everyone is upset about everything... we all need a breather and cool down!

 

[Zeus.]

I have deleted mine and Tims Private conversation from pm's as after a good night sleep,your this thread, cutting the lawn and on reflection see it as a Cry for help from Tim