I’d like to pick someone’s brains re EI please

[Sarah Evans]

Hello, thanks for reading. I’d like to check what I’m doing with someone experienced with EI please - just to check my understanding.

I’m doing 50% EI and excel with about 4 hours LED lighting (Fluval Aquasky).

Water readings
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate (before a water change or out the tap) 20ppm

KH 9
GH 17
Phosphate 3-4 ppm

I’ve been testing different mixes because I was getting some green spot algae which I understand to be an imbalance in nitrates to phosphates. I had also got some BBA, so reduced photo period from 6 to 4.

I notice my tap phosphates are about 3ppm and the tank phosphates marginally higher. I had been adding potassium phosphate to my EI mix.

I know lots of people don’t test because the results can be inaccurate, but it’s helping me understand the science at the moment.

Anyway, I’ve omitted the potassium phosphate from my EI mix and put the full (suggested) amount of potassium nitrate in to try and get 10 parts Nitrate to 1 part phosphate. I had previously reduced the potassium nitrate because of high API Nitrate readings, but I’m now using Salifert.

My tank Nitrate before a water change is 25 ppm and about 20ppm from the tap.

I’m also looking at my swords and they’re yellowing slightly and the green spot algae is developing on some paler leaves on my crypt. Previously, I’d only seen it on anubis and the glass (not much, but enough to suggest an imbalance). I would also say that I’m not seeing the growth that I first saw with EI.

So, I’m thinking that I’ve been adding too much potassium (I had replaced some potassium nitrate with potassium sulphate to rule out having too much Nitrate) . And as I understand it, too much potassium stops the uptake of nitrogen, which could explain my yellowing sword leaves.

Does that all make sense to someone who has managed to read all of that? I hope I’ve explained that ok?






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[ceg4048]

Hello,
I've moved this thread to the Fert Dosing section as this is neither EI natrual or Low tech.

Regarding your question GSA has nothing to do with Nitrate shortages. It is strictly a PO4/CO2 issue.

I know lots of people don’t test because the results can be inaccurate, but it’s helping me understand the science at the moment.

You are correct that we strongly advise against testing and this is exactly why. In fact it has not really helped you to gain any sort of fundamental understanding of the issues.

Does that all make sense to someone who has managed to read all of that? I hope I’ve explained that ok?

Well, yes, you have explained your reasoning and your methods quite well, but as I mentioned, unfortunately, most of the actions taken have been a result of misinformation provided to you and the resulting confusion has been exacerbated by the unreliable and inaccurate data obtained by using test kits.

So it's best to restart the analysis based on the premise that GSA is caused by any combination of poor PO4 and poor CO2.
What this means is that it could actually be all a result of poor PO4 (and may have nothing to do with CO2), or the opposite might be true, or it could be due to both deficiencies.

When attacking GSA therefore we must always assume that it is a result of both deficiencies until we can eliminate one as a possibility.

So, I’m thinking that I’ve been adding too much potassium (I had replaced some potassium nitrate with potassium sulphate to rule out having too much Nitrate) . And as I understand it, too much potassium stops the uptake of nitrogen, which could explain my yellowing sword leaves.

No.
Another falsehood that I hope to convince you of is that idea of "balance" or ratios, or of one thing stopping the uptake of another. While this may be true in terrestrial plants, it has nothing to do with aquatic plants. When you experience paling of leaves you must always determine if the paling is occurring on mature leaves or whether on new leaves. If the paling occurs on mature leaves, then it automatically means a Nitrogen shortfall. If the paling occurs on young leaves only then this automatically means a micronutrient shortfall. If the paling occurs on both types of leaves then it means you have a major failure of both Nitrogen as well as micronutrients. This could be due to dosing miscalulation or, if the dosing is correct, it might be due to poor circulation/distribution of the water. Since you have deviated from the EI recipe so much then nothing is certain.

This "balance" path will take you nowhere, very quickly, and the more time you spend chasing balance/ratios, the more damage is being done to the plants.
Aquatic plants do not care about balance or about dosing ratios. They pull nutrients from the water column and from the sediment as much as they can to satisfy their needs.
They will even pull nutrition to the point of gluttony and will store the energy away in the form of starch for later use.
So it doesn't matter what balance you provide. If nutrients are available they will regulate it's uptake based on the conditions that they sense around them, not in any ratio that you dose.
This is a fundamental truth that defies any dosing strategy, or any intent of the hobbyist, so the idea of EI is to provide an unlimited amount of nutrition and to allow the plants to take what they want in any ratio that they want.

So the first step is to stop testing and to dose the full amount of EI so that you can eliminate the dosing scheme as a root cause. Then you need not worry about what the content of the tap is or what the readings of a test kit is. You will know categorically that an unlimited amount of nutrition is in the tank.

When dosing liquid carbon some hobbyists make the mistake of assuming that it has the same energy potential as gas injection, or they assume that they can simply dose the amount of liquid suggested on the bottle. These are all errors in judgement because depending on the lighting, the liquid, which has very poor performance compared to gas, may need to be dosed at multiple values of the bottle suggestion. Dosing at multiple values can have a negative effect because Gluteraldehyde is actually a disinfectant/biocide and therefore every plant has some threshold level of toxicity. Hardy plants such as ferns/mosses/swords/(most)stems/crypts and even less hardy plants such as carpet plants have a high threshold and you can dose a higher amount.

Liverworts, bladderworts, Riccia and some Vallis do not appreciate high levels of Gluteraldehyde.

Shrimp and large fish are also susceptible to the liquid.

So assuming you do not have any of these sensitive species, you can try increasing to dosage to 2X-3X bottle suggested dosing and look for improvements over the next few weeks.
Concurrently, you may consider reducing the light intensity and also ensure that you have good flow and distribution in the tank. These are all common pitfalls, but are more critical when injecting gas as opposed to dosing liquid. Still, there ought not to be any slacking in that area regardless.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,

 

[Daveslaney]

The culprit for the damage to your swords could be in the cave in the middle of your tank?

 

[Sarah Evans]

Hello,
I've moved this thread to the Fert Dosing section as this is neither EI natrual or Low tech.

Regarding your question GSA has nothing to do with Nitrate shortages. It is strictly a PO4/CO2 issue.

You are correct that we strongly advise against testing and this is exactly why. In fact it has not really helped you to gain any sort of fundamental understanding of the issues.


Well, yes, you have explained your reasoning and your methods quite well, but as I mentioned, unfortunately, most of the actions taken have been a result of misinformation provided to you and the resulting confusion has been exacerbated by the unreliable and inaccurate data obtained by using test kits.

So it's best to restart the analysis based on the premise that GSA is caused by any combination of poor PO4 and poor CO2.
What this means is that it could actually be all a result of poor PO4 (and may have nothing to do with CO2), or the opposite might be true, or it could be due to both deficiencies.

When attacking GSA therefore we must always assume that it is a result of both deficiencies until we can eliminate one as a possibility.


No.
Another falsehood that I hope to convince you of is that idea of "balance" or ratios, or of one thing stopping the uptake of another. While this may be true in terrestrial plants, it has nothing to do with aquatic plants. When you experience paling of leaves you must always determine if the paling is occurring on mature leaves or whether on new leaves. If the paling occurs on mature leaves, then it automatically means a Nitrogen shortfall. If the paling occurs on young leaves only then this automatically means a micronutrient shortfall. If the paling occurs on both types of leaves then it means you have a major failure of both Nitrogen as well as micronutrients. This could be due to dosing miscalulation or, if the dosing is correct, it might be due to poor circulation/distribution of the water. Since you have deviated from the EI recipe so much then nothing is certain.

This "balance" path will take you nowhere, very quickly, and the more time you spend chasing balance/ratios, the more damage is being done to the plants.
Aquatic plants do not care about balance or about dosing ratios. They pull nutrients from the water column and from the sediment as much as they can to satisfy their needs.
They will even pull nutrition to the point of gluttony and will store the energy away in the form of starch for later use.
So it doesn't matter what balance you provide. If nutrients are available they will regulate it's uptake based on the conditions that they sense around them, not in any ratio that you dose.
This is a fundamental truth that defies any dosing strategy, or any intent of the hobbyist, so the idea of EI is to provide an unlimited amount of nutrition and to allow the plants to take what they want in any ratio that they want.

So the first step is to stop testing and to dose the full amount of EI so that you can eliminate the dosing scheme as a root cause. Then you need not worry about what the content of the tap is or what the readings of a test kit is. You will know categorically that an unlimited amount of nutrition is in the tank.

When dosing liquid carbon some hobbyists make the mistake of assuming that it has the same energy potential as gas injection, or they assume that they can simply dose the amount of liquid suggested on the bottle. These are all errors in judgement because depending on the lighting, the liquid, which has very poor performance compared to gas, may need to be dosed at multiple values of the bottle suggestion. Dosing at multiple values can have a negative effect because Gluteraldehyde is actually a disinfectant/biocide and therefore every plant has some threshold level of toxicity. Hardy plants such as ferns/mosses/swords/(most)stems/crypts and even less hardy plants such as carpet plants have a high threshold and you can dose a higher amount.

Liverworts, bladderworts, Riccia and some Vallis do not appreciate high levels of Gluteraldehyde.

Shrimp and large fish are also susceptible to the liquid.

So assuming you do not have any of these sensitive species, you can try increasing to dosage to 2X-3X bottle suggested dosing and look for improvements over the next few weeks.
Concurrently, you may consider reducing the light intensity and also ensure that you have good flow and distribution in the tank. These are all common pitfalls, but are more critical when injecting gas as opposed to dosing liquid. Still, there ought not to be any slacking in that area regardless.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,

Thank you for that very detailed reply. I will go back to dosing the full amount then. I have recently lowered my photo period from 6 to 4 hours because I was getting a tiny amount of BBA too.

The yellowing is just on older leaves of my sword and one Anubias.

I’d quite like to stop using excel really and make the tank lower tech, but at least I’m not killing plants this time!

Thanks again


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