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How intelligent are fish?

DutchMuch

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i thought we knew this already?

there was a scientific study (in depth) on this years and years ago, it was a very hot topic on APC for a while but died down. It also tested fish's ability to sense a fish of its own specie (proved true in most cases i believe)
 

zozo

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BubblingUnder

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some fish have self awareness and intelligence
Not sure you can extrapolate this behaviour from Cleaner fish to fish generally. Cleaner fish need to read subtle clues from other fish in order not to get eaten so nature evolves these traits in preference to others. Many other fish rely on schooling behaviour to survive & so evolution selects for that ability instead.

With the video from Sebastien Moro I agree with his comments about the over exploitation of the oceans. Much of that is due to over population & lack of control over international waters. I understand the piece about cruelty in leaving fish on a ships deck to die but that is a practical & safety issue as you could never stun an individual fish when thousands are caught in a net at once. Interesting stuff though.....
 

tacy k

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I'm not sure that this is quite relevant, but over the years I have found tiny fish fry in the sump under my tank (Diamond tetra and Corys), in the bottom of external filters (Corys), and in what I thought was an uninhabited breeding tank (Praecox rainbow). I've reared them and when they were big enough put them back in the tanks with their relatives. The Diamond tetra followed the other Diamond Tetra (but it did get distracted by zebras). And the cory knew it was a cory (although its only alternatives were Clown loaches or Siamensis). The most impressive was the Rainbow who immediately followed the other rainbows, in spite of there being lots of similar sized fish in the tank; tetras, zebras and hatchets. I'd love to know how they know who they are without ever having seen another fish before in their lives.
 

Mick.Dk

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I'm not sure that this is quite relevant, but over the years I have found tiny fish fry in the sump under my tank (Diamond tetra and Corys), in the bottom of external filters (Corys), and in what I thought was an uninhabited breeding tank (Praecox rainbow). I've reared them and when they were big enough put them back in the tanks with their relatives. The Diamond tetra followed the other Diamond Tetra (but it did get distracted by zebras). And the cory knew it was a cory (although its only alternatives were Clown loaches or Siamensis). The most impressive was the Rainbow who immediately followed the other rainbows, in spite of there being lots of similar sized fish in the tank; tetras, zebras and hatchets. I'd love to know how they know who they are without ever having seen another fish before in their lives.
Genetics. ....... Simple matter of "Darwin"........those who tried to mate with wrong species, didn't get offspring .....*s*
 
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Genetics. ....... Simple matter of "Darwin"........those who tried to mate with wrong species, didn't get offspring .....*s*

Not sure you can extrapolate this behaviour from Cleaner fish to fish generally.

A simple 30 minutes research will pretty much prove you wrong. The issue with people is that fish science in terms of fish being sentient beings is only new, a decade or so old. So a lot of minds are stuck in the old thinking.

Imagine a ship deck full of dead dogs or dead cats....Whats the difference to fish?

How about throwing a harpoon, catching your dog, then cut open while still alive and cook it for dinner for the kids...

Or why not gas your cat with some CO2....big deal, you'll get another cat...

If we count the dead fish we pretend to have kept as pets,each one of us, including myself, has killed more fish than the fingers on their hands over the years. I agree it may not have been intentional but fundamentally it means we have no clue about fish. We're struggling to keep them alive for their full life spans, even after years of experience. Why is it so difficult.....because we just don't know enough. Take octopuses in captivity for example or orca whales, highly intelligent fish that don't last in captivity with the best of efforts...

A lot of the science also points at fish having quite different senses than ours, and they can actually be superior in certain ways at how they perceive the world around them compared to humans .Just because we don't understand them yet, doesn't mean we should treat them with ignorance.

I personally think that people who do not have an open mind towards fish behavior, and are not prepared to continuously educate themselves on "fish science", should not keep fish as pets in the first place. If one goes back in history, there were times when some humans thought other humans are lesser than them simply because they looked different. That sort of thinking is extremely ignorant and inhumane. We're are still doing that...but to animals of all sorts. I also think that the desire of human beings to be accepted by others hinders their ability to question the validity of morals established by the group.



Some points an article I randomly selected based on current research:

  • They [fish] develop cultural traditions and can even recognize themselves and others
  • They also show signs of Machiavellian intelligence, such as cooperation and reconciliation
  • Professor Brown said the primary senses of the fish are "just as good" and in some cases better than that of humans.
  • The level of mental complexity that fish display is on a par with most other vertebrates, while there is mounting evidence that they can feel pain in a manner similar to humans.
It's high time that use what we know on behalf of fish and other animals who are used and abused in the countless billions. Fish clearly are not things nor disposable objects, but rather sentient and feeling beings, a point stressedi n Farm Sanctuary's “Someone, Not Something” project.

Source: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...nt-and-emotional-beings-and-clearly-feel-pain
 

DutchMuch

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A simple 30 minutes research will pretty much prove you wrong.
to be fair, your post didnt contain any proof. It contained a lot of... yea.

For those who wont bother to click the article he linked above, this is a summary image of the article.


62f9TN2.png



*To clarify this post its not meant to argue im just saying no evidence was actually provided by the poster despite him not agreeing with another poster and "dissing" him.
 

DutchMuch

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Neither did yours.
but i wasnt trying to prove anything...?:confused: like i said in the fine print. I didnt agree nor disagree with your post.

Simply implied you didn't have any actual evidence to contradict what the posts you quoted said.

I cannot help myself but to comment on how immature of a reply that is either.
 
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but i wasnt trying to prove anything...?
Genetics. ....... Simple matter of "Darwin".

Do you care to elaborate on the intention of your original post in that case? What I get from your short comment, taking into consideration you made a choice what to type in that sort sentence, is that you've given up on forming your own opinions because someone already has done the thinking on your behalf...and because his name is Darwin, you appear to think your stance is stronger than mine, since I don't quote an established name but I state my own opinion...

I cannot help myself but to comment on how immature of a reply that is either.

- sorry to correct you, but none of these are fish!!!!!!!

Nope. You are certainly right. I'll call them molluscs and water mammals in case someone gets confused that fish can be as smart.

In relation to being immature, what do you think your comment sounds like since your first defense is a personal insult?
 

Tim Harrison

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This subject has always been contentious and emotive, and perhaps will forever remain so. Nevertheless, please try to remain civil and respectful, and especially refrain from comments of a personal nature.
 
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The below article, which is actually debunking the "fish sentience" claim is quite interesting from the perspective of what they use as a contra-argument....

Name of article:
New paper debunks fish sentience claim


Initial paragraph:

In recent times there has been a concerted push by animal rights activists and a small group of fish behaviour scientists to try and show that fish are conscious, sentient beings, so as to affect changes to fisheries and fish use worldwide. One of the pillars of this belief was a paper published in 2015 by Rey et al. in the Journal of Experimental Biology where the authors alleged that fish exhibited “emotional fever” through allegedly exhibiting a preference for warmer water after being handled in a net.

Debunking the fish sentience science

However, a new article published in the same journal by researchers at the University of St Andrews in the UK has found the original study was fatally flawed. After first conducting a “null distribution” test that considered fish behaviour in the absence of thermal variation (an important control that was not performed in the original study), the new research found not only was there no evidence of preference for “fever” after netting, instead they found a temporary preference for lower water temperatures. In conclusion the scientists stated “We observed no evidence for stress induced hyperthermia; across two experiments the stressed fish showed no preference for warmer areas”.

Source: http://www.fishingworld.com.au/news/new-paper-debunks-fish-sentience-claim


So in other words, paraphrasing the last sentence, the STRESSED fish showed no hyperthermia symptoms....:rolleyes:

From the perspective of being a long term fish keeper, that has netted fish many times, it is blatantly evident they get stressed, in some cases for weeks, and not only that, they need time to "forgive" the person that netted them. I once netted all the bunch of platies I had to move them to another tank. I never caught the last one after numerous attempts. She died within a couple of months of the event of catching all her "friends", having exhibited a severely fearful behaviour, rushing to corners when she saw me. I had no chance of catching her short of draining the tank down and stressing everything else. It still gets me thinking if she thought I killed all her buddies and she was the last one standing....
 

Keith GH

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I am only talking from 70+ years of Fresh and Salt water fishing experience.
Some are completely stupid I have known them to eat, Cigarette buts, lolly papers, and even chicken bones. They will continually eat even when their stomach and mouths are full.

Some are extremely intelligent when fishing for big fish and using a bait 10+kg no matter where you place the hook they will eat up to the hook. Tagged sharks have been tracked up and down the east coast of Aust and go exactly the same location on the way back to where they when going up the coast. They know where the food is and how to get it.

Notice your fish in the tank they will school together at feeding time.

Keith:wave::wave:
 

BubblingUnder

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The issue with people is that fish science in terms of fish being sentient beings is only new, a decade or so old. So a lot of minds are stuck in the old thinking
Humans are part of nature, for us to live something has to die whether it be animal or vegetable. So called 'old minds' haven't forgotten this reality a few prefer to ignore it & pretend their survival doesn't depend on it.

How about throwing a harpoon, catching your dog, then cut open while still alive and cook it for dinner
You cannot practically stun an entire net full of fish in a heaving boat with a dangerous environment & it would endanger the fishermen to do so. With a dog/cat it is practical to use anaesthetic's to do so. As an individual Angler I catch fish for myself to eat but always stun them before taking them.

If we count the dead fish we pretend to have kept as pets, each one of us, including myself, has killed more fish than the fingers on their hands over the years. We're struggling to keep them alive for their full life spans
Most fish live longer than their normal lives in captivity especially if you take fry mortality into account with predation & natural disaster greatly reduced & the possibility of medicines to treat common ailments.

Fish die in the natural world as life is 100% fatal. You are not preventing suffering, it's usually by being eaten alive by something with teeth. Would you rather be euthanised by an aquarist or eaten alive in the wild ? I know which I would prefer...…
 

zozo

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Humans are part of nature, for us to live something has to die whether it be animal or vegetable. So called 'old minds' haven't forgotten this reality a few prefer to ignore it & pretend their survival doesn't depend on it.

Nice one. :) But than again, what is that, Humanity, Humane and Inhumane? It's a term i guess nobody is able to explain what it means. Is it not just what Shakespear used to say "To be or not to be".. Isn't beeing Human not just simply Being.. With a prefix as excuse for supremacy classification?.

But it indeed comes down to Darwin again, in terms of survival and being.. And surviving is a natural instinct and a very selfish thing, ignorance is simply inevitable in order to survive.
 

Tim Harrison

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This is an interesting overview on fish intelligence, for those who haven't already seen it.

I think different species of fish undoubtedly exhibit behaviours that could be interpreted as intelligence. But sometimes it is difficult to determine the difference between behaviour which is innate, genetically hardwired through natural selection, and that which is learned or developed through experience.

I also think that we all have an innate psychological tendency toward anthropomorphism, and attribute human traits, emotions or intentions to none human entities. It's something that has been prevalent throughout human history, and is deeply ingrained in human culture throughout the world.

Morgans Canon is a fundamental precept of comparative (animal) psychology and is perhaps worth bearing in mind when considering questions like...How intelligent are fish ?
 
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Most fish live longer than their normal lives in captivity especially if you take fry mortality into account with predation & natural disaster greatly reduced & the possibility of medicines to treat common ailments.

Most fish in in the aquarium trade die prematurely, billions of them.

Would you rather be euthanised by an aquarist or eaten alive in the wild ? I know which I would prefer...

I think I'd rather die free while doing my best trying to escape natural predators
I would also question the statement that fish left to natural selection have less chance than fish caught for the aquarium trade...Although, the most dangerous enemy to fish are humans, one way or another, through pollution, destroyed habitats, consumption, etc..So in certain cases there is some merit at saying they'll survive longer in the aquarium trade.

As an individual Angler I catch fish for myself to eat but always stun them before taking them.

Good to hear. I personally no longer can kill a fish, even to eat. I used to and I still get chills at thinking how I broke some fish's jaw trying to take the hook out. At the time it felt normal, as I was fishing so often. So perspectives can change when you look at fish from a different point of view.

I also think that we all have an innate psychological tendency toward anthropomorphism, and attribute human traits, emotions or intentions to none human entities.

I think we are less likely to associate with fish on that level, from all animals we keep as pets. If we were attributing human traits to fish, there would be less dead fish in the sea...But I agree to an extent, fish are no humans and that's the point, we do not understand them because we have a narrow point of view.

Not fish related, but this is my dog below in 2 different state of minds, human like :rolleyes:

First one climbing the stairs, she loves it and gets very excited when she's in front of me.
Angie1.jpg


The below one is after I threatened to give her a bath :D She hates the thought of it and when I say it, she just goes to bed looking sorry for herself....
Angie2.jpg
 
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