• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

German ram - parasite/worm?

Sammy Islam

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2019
Messages
692
Location
Hertfordshire
Hey all,
I thought i was having good luck with my rams but my male is now ill and I don't know what meds are effective for this sort of thing. I've had a pair for nearly 6 months and they are very active and eat a lot. I feed them different types of tetra crisps, hikari micro wafers, NTlabs red 48 chichlid food and mixed frozen food aswell as peas every week.

The last 2 days the the male has been hanging around near the substrate and not moving, just breathing heavy. He hasn't been interested in food for the first time ever which is very worrying as hes usually a beast. I've done 2 water changes in the past two days to see if that helps him out.

Now i have noticed something hanging out his bum, looks like a worm? It has come out more today so maybe hes crapping it out? I did 2 rounds of general cure the 3 weeks ago as his belly was becoming flat/sunken even though he was eating loads and not pooping much. What can i do? Only positive thing is he is still very colourful, with the dark striping.

Thanks
IMG_20200216_234416.jpg
 
Last edited:
To me this looks like the ovipositor on the female... have a google and see if you think it might be... the behaviour and colour action fits also...
 
It's my male, the female seems fine and doesn't have a sunken belly and is red/pink, also very active and eating loads.

IMG_20200215_190610__01.jpg
 
It's always hard to diagnose what's wrong, especially remotely. I'd be tempted to treat with broad spectrum meds. Take a look at eSHa products. They've always worked well for me and are usually well tolerated and shrimp and plant safe. A combination of eSHa 2000, EXIT, and gdex will cover most bases.
 
I did 2 rounds of general cure the 3 weeks ago as his belly was becoming flat/sunken even though he was eating loads and not pooping much. What can i do? Only positive thing is he is still very colourful, with the dark striping.

Listed ingredients for API general cure (metronidazole praziquantel) sound decent but is there any indication of amount that is dosed?
What are the dosage/treatment instructions?
Want is tank pH? Temperature? Water hardness?
Are you dosing EI fertilizer?


At this point I’d likely do a quick ich treatment (though from what you’re reporting I’m more inclined to think internal parasites - nonetheless you may see some improvement)
I prefer formalin based meds such as Hikari IchX as one can usually observe an improvement within 60min IF external parasites are a main issue, as eSHa EXIT comes highly recommended, give that a try - if you don’t see improved activity, reduced respiration rate within 12-24 h, assume this is not treating a primary issue

Med “cleanup” - large water change (I’ll do 50-90% BUT an 80% water change is not unusual for my tanks) followed by good quality activated carbon/charcoal (I use Seachem or a Marine grade carbon)
Remove carbon after 12-24h (I like to do another water change, especially if you’re only doing 25-50% water changes)

And as you’ve done metro/prazi (assuming that the dosage was correct and not too low (unfortunately some aquarium remedies don’t meet “threshold” levels for active ingredients) and active ingredients were stored properly at the distributor and the retailer) I’d choose a different medication for the next round

eSHa ndx is levamisol based and one of the few anthelmintics effecfive against Camallanus (once sufficiently advanced, the typical “red threads” can be observed (often temporarily) extending from the vent)
Levamisol is reasonably well tolerated by most fish species, and fairly effective as a “bath medication”

The “bit” seen in the photo above looks more like shed intestinal lining than any worm (most of which will still be active and possibly quite lively when “hanging out”)

Fish doesn’t look too emaciated so he should recover IF you can sort out the suitable medication
Generally you should observe some improvement within 3-5 days
Medicated food is much more efficient than most bath remedies, so if fish begins eating, switch over to this (it’s also better tolerated)

Note, when medicating, daily water changes are always recommended

Lovely fish! hopefully you see some improvement
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the replies, going to head over to LFS and see what meds they have in a bit.

My temp is 25.5, tank ph 7.9 and is no longer co2 injected or dosed. Just water changes every week as i was getting ready to break down the tank and put the fish into my new scape.

Regarding the previous general cure treatment, the dosing instructions are 1 sachet per 10gallon (3 in my 30g) then repeat after 48 hours, then water change after another 48 hours. I generally change 70-80% water weekly, but have been doing it daily since i noticed something is up.

I'll have a look at what meds they have hopefully they have some Esha meds, what about water life octozin? Can i get medicated foods from LFS? I work from home so i will be observing his behaviour and looking out for an improvement. Hopefully he gets better as rams are my favourite and this is the longest a pair have survived.
 
Just been to 2 LFS and both of them had like half of the meds they usually have. They didnt have any eSha products so im going to order them online, will be good to have seeing as you can use them with eachother.

Luckily i found a bag of fluke solve which has prazi in it, it was the only medication with either prazi or metro availabile. Reading online people have had success with it for what i need to treat for and seems highly concentrated. Also bought some garlic guard to see if i can encourage him to eat. Will keep this updated over the next couple of days and see how things go.

Thanks
 
Go and smell the frozen food - is it off? Every time I fed my rams on frozen food they died within a month. It turned out that the deliveries were defrosting according to LFS staff.
 
I don't buy much at a time, just the mixed blister packs. I usually pick one towards the back of the freezer and they end up in my freezer within 10m. I only bought a new pack last week and fed the bloodworms or red mosquito larvae the other day which the female ate, but the male didn't so i knew something was up with him and have been monitoring since.

This might be a better pic
Screenshot_20200217-153618.jpg
 
It happened before it even reached the shop floor in my case. Sometimes it smells okay. But if it's rank....
 
I'll have a smell next time i feed the frozen food. It may smell, but shouldn't smell rank?

I plan to dose the fluke solve later after a 80% water change. The instructions are a little vague, is it a 24h treatment? After which i should do another water change?
 
No, only amanos at the moment. But was planning on putting them into my new tank which has 20+ cherrys and is heavily planted.
 
OK, I'll keep an eye on your journal. I'll be looking for that final showpiece fish within the next few months. I've always wanted rams.
 
Cool! I just updated it, first trim ;)
Rams are the best, but the warm temperatures make everything harder with co2 etc. For me, they never seem to last long, i always drip aclimate them and feed them up, and give them some meds if any issues arise which is bound to happen. These have lasted the longest, and have been very healthy in general so the rapid change in health is worrying.
 
Based upon a quick literature search, Waterlife Octozin is likely worth a trial (it will impact some known internal parasites (though not helminths)


From Tropical Fish Site
Waterlife Octozin
The main active ingredient of Octozin is dimetridazole and contains 0.085g per gram.
(this is reported in several places but may have a single source, you might attempt to confirm this is still the case
One poster reported this as part of an email inquiry with Waterlife)

You’ll need to determine how this value relates to the pill formulation
 
Treating diseases in fish is complicated, remedies marketed for the aquarium hobbyist don’t help the situation by not clearly listing active ingredients and concentrations when dosed as directed (and often generate their own version of treatment rather than following veterinary text protocols)

Note that Metronidazole and Dimetridazole are NOT alternate names for the same compound (as suggested by quite a few online fish forum posts)

This article is open access
Diplomonad flagellates of some ornamental fish cultured in Thailand
Suchanya Mankhakhet1,4, Naraid Suanyuk1, Chutima Tantikitti1*, Wutiporn Phromkunthong1, Suphada Kiriratnikom2, Theerawoot Lerssutthichawal3 and Boonkob Viriyapongsutee1

While Diplomonad flagellates were identified in angelfish, oscars and mbuna (sorry no rams in study but they often share high coincidence with angelfish), only those isolated from angelfish were able to be grown under culture, so data is based upon that group

2.10 In vivo treatment of spironucleosis in angelfish

Dimetridazole was chosen for treatment of spironucleosis in angelfish because of its effectiveness in inhibiting parasite growth in vitro study.
Infected angelfish collected from ornamental fish farm were used in this study.
Infected fish were sampled and determined for the present of the diplomonad flagellates using the same method as described previously. This experiment was conducted in duplicate using 45 fish per replication.
Dimetridazole was examined at concentrations of 0, 0.25, 0.50, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0, and 6.0 μg/ml by prolonged immersion method. After immersion, five infected fish were collected daily from each replication to examine the present of the parasite. Infection rate was calculated as percentage from number of infected fish to the total number of fish examined.

The infection was found in several organs of infected fish including intestine, liver, gall bladder, spleen, heart, skin and fins.

Morphological characteristics of diplomonad flagellates from angelfish under light and electron microscopes studies indicated that the parasite was Spironucleus vortens.

the in vivo study revealed that dimetridazole at 4.0 μg/ml provides the highest efficiency

3.6 Susceptibility of other fish species
No mortality or sign of disease was observed in goldfish, guppy and platy fish injected with S. vortens or any of the control fish. Although lethargy of guppy and platy injected with S.vortens was recorded, all fish recovered within one day post injection. No S. vortens was detected in survived fish examined at the end of experiment.
The article is worth reading in its entirety



Metronidazole was not effective for treatment of C iubilans, but bath treatments with dimetridazole (80 mg/L for 24 hours, repeated daily for 3 days) or 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol (10 mg/L for 24 hours, repeated daily for 3 days) may be useful in decreasing the prevalence of infestation.
(Sorry forgot to include the link, thIs was also picked up through Science Direct)

From Gastrointestinal Protozoal Parasites

Acute General Treatment
Husbandry
Correcting environmental abnormalities and removing stressors (poor water quality) is a critical step in decreasing morbidity/mortality and preventing disease.

Thorough cleaning of the gravel/substrate and filter may help reduce environmental contamination.

Cryptobia

No effective treatment for Cryptobia has been reported.

Cryptobia may be able to survive intracellularly in phagocytic cells, making treatment difficult.

Sulfadimethoxine is anecdotally reported to decrease mortality but not eliminate the parasite.

Dimetridazole and 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol (additional studies are needed to determine optimal dose and duration) may help to reduce the prevalence of infestation. No significant improvement was illustrated for fish treated with nitrofurazone, primaquine, chloroquine, or metronidazole.


Hexamita/Spironucleus

The treatment of choice for Hexamitaand Spironucleus is metronidazole.

Dosage: metronidazole 1.0% (1 gram/100 grams feed) in the feed for 10-14 days; metronidazole can be mixed into a gel diet or top dressed on a commercial diet.

Prolonged bath immersion: 5-6 mg/L (250 mg/10 gal [6.6 mg/L] of water); treat every 24-48 hours for 10-14 days. 50% to 75% water changes should be performed between treatments. Metronidazole can damage the biofilter.

Infestations respond best to oral treatment. The author reserves bath treatments for anorexic fish.


(Chapter preview via Science Direct so limited access)
 
Back
Top