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Fish Depression Is Not a Joke

zozo

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Fish Depression Is Not a Joke

Something i already believe in for the biggest part of beeing active in this hobby, about 40 years.. Tho it never was and even today it still isn't realy open to any discussion for the majority of people. Always experienced lots of people reacting to it in a cynical manner and always kinda downsizing it and joking it away. Or laugh it away as humanizing pets behaivor, which is the most common excuse. Like you are the idiot who talks to his fish.

Holding my ground firmly for all this time earned me the nickname Dr. Doolitlle, the nutty guy who believes he can talk to animals. Funny actualy and always felt pitty, more for the animal, but also a bit for the people not understanding, that it actualy aint at all about talking and not about humanizing. :) It's observing behaivor, interpreting this with an open mind and giving the benefit of the doubt. And respect this for as long as you do not know. Not particularly scientific, but at least it's open minded and keeping realistic possibilities in the back of your mind.

But at last, it took a very long time for some sceintist finaly to take the mater seriously and study the subject in controlled conditions with cotrolled stimuli.



Unfortunately the last bold sentence still holds very true.. It also reflects in the advices people still get from the LFS today and for example in the price of pioneer <Culum Browns> book <Fish Cognition and Behavior>

Maybe not that important to buy and read such an expensive book about it if you are the hobbyist. I didn't because i believe it contents already long before it was ever written. I do not realy need to know factual details for something i already believe since childhood. But for anybody having troubles with this idea, just keep in mind. By now you are most likely prooven very wrong. :thumbup:

Some more interesting reads about it

<How do we know wheter fish have feelings too?>

<Fish Are Sentient and Emotional Beings and Clearly Feel Pain>

<Fish can recognise human faces, new research shows>

<Fish are sentient animals who form friendships and experience 'positive emotions'>

<Functional aspects of emotions in fish>

Have fun! :) And hopefully this will make you love your fish even more than you ever did before. :cool:
 
Don't know about emotions, but for me the first thing in a tank will always be: will it be "good" for the fish. So i will try to have them feel as "comfortable" ( pH, temp, hiding places,amount of light, waterquality, foodstuffs)) as possible. In part that's why i feel in some scapes fish will not be happy, and why i prefer "biotope-like"setups.
 
Not sure about sentient thought, but I believe fish respond to environmental stimuli, and perhaps how a species responds is determined by the niche they are hardwired to exploit.
Goldfish probably recognise faces and maybe associate a human presence with feeding time. And I know certain chiclids, for instance, can behave in a similar way.

As for shoaling fish like zebras behaving differently if individuals are isolated from the rest, I don't think that's so much an emotional response as hardwired survival instinct, there is safety in numbers.

Either way, although I don't really agree that fish should necessarily be given human status, I do think that they should be treated with respect and have a right to a life free from suffering.
As a fish keeper I've always done my utmost to provide the best environment and conditions I can for them. I guess I must be doing something right since most live much longer than they are supposed to.
In part that's why i feel in some scapes fish will not be happy, and why i prefer "biotope-like"setups.
I agree with that too, it's the main reason I'm not particularly a fan of Iwagumi.
 
Don't know about emotions

99% doesn't know of his/her neighbours emotions.. We know all about our own and can only believe that what the other says feels the same for everybody. But in reality we don't know, we only describe feelings in words and there are more words than feelings.
:thumbup:
Every argument stating they might have not is as loosely founded as stating they have.. But we as humans live and we have and our idea that emotions can't excist without consciousness and reasoning is again also as losely founded.

Doubt is our pitfall and giving benefit of the doubt is just a saying used randomly when it's beneficialy applicable and probably very painfull for the survival of our consciousness to make it a common practice.. :thumbup:
 
given human status

Should be factualy reviced.. :) It's not given its taken.. We can't get around it, we are the very top predator and a very cruel one as well. That's what we became, are and probably will be for ever. But that doesn't mean we should keep indulging and poisson ourselfs with dishonesty and unfounded believes and doubts to excuse our actions to keep a self invented status alive.

Don't get me wrong.. :) These thoughts came to my mind while chopping off my own chickens heads..
 
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All Dr. Pittman did was chemically alter his Zebra fish so it cared less about the environment it was in. You couldn't infer it was depressed. I'm sure if you gave most well adjusted people anti depressants they would get a temporary boost. The difference between 'feeling a bit down' & 'clinically depressed' is a scale & most people don't need anti depressants to function in their environment.
The Zebra fish was exhibiting normal behaviour when it found itself in sub-optimal conditions. There was no cover in its tank (plants/rocks) or the cover provided by other members of a fish shoal so it hugged the largest hard/deep surface (the tank bottom). All Dr Pittman proved was that you can drug a fish & get your study published in the New York Times (I wonder if it was sponsored by PETA)
 
In the UK at least, fish owners have as much of a duty of care as dog or cat owners i.e.

(1)A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is responsible are met to the extent required by good practice.

(2)For the purposes of this Act, an animal's needs shall be taken to include—
(a)its need for a suitable environment,
(b)its need for a suitable diet,
(c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,
(d)any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and
(e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

Doesn't matter whether you think they have emotions or not, you need to provide an environment that is suitable for their needs (appropriate water, heating, lighting), a suitable diet, the space and facilities for them to exhibit normal behaviour (hiding places, substrate for diggers etc.), house them with companions if they are shoallers, and actively protect them from harm (no ramping up the CO2 until they are gasping).
 
Should be factualy reviced.. :) It's not given its taken..
Yes, I take your point. The whole debate is a philosophical minefield. Respecting animal rights whilst at the same time eating them is never going to be an ethical picnic. However, I believe that animals have the right to dignity and a life free from suffering.
In terms of mistreatment I have a similar philosophy to @tam. Whether animal intelligence, sentience, and emotion etc are scientifically proven or just anthropomorphic projections is largely irrelevant because there is no reason why the interests of animals can not be given the same consideration as humans. Although, occasionally dressing your cat up in a funny outfit can be very amusing...

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The whole debate is a philosophical minefield.
It actualy doesn't need to be. It is a debate where each induvidual in reality doesn't know what he's talking about. . But in between the grey erea of the Creationist and Evolutionist and maybe the standing at the sideline watching agnostic and atheistic view it indeed is. Based on a not very steady founded deep rooted ancient believe system.. Giving some (probably evolutionist) scientists the idea to perform the impossible task to proof that animals are more similar to us than we dare to believe. IMHO and not to be judgemental and only trying to be honnest to myself and everybody around me.. It is the very same deep rooted ancient believe system that grew the arrogance in people to think it is irrelevant.

I think is is very relevant and it will only benefit us all, to honestly look at the only facts we realy have so far. I dare to go that far to say it is crucial for our survival on this planet to start thinking differnetly about the creatures we live with. And you still can eat them with respect, that's not the issue..

We are on and from this planet.. We live here together and we have emotions.. It holds more honesty and relevacy to believe that everything else that lives here as well probably has equal emotions as well. It needs no proof, it's a simple harmless believe and not even that difficult because believing is somethig we are darn good at. There is no factual evidence and nothing else but an ancient deep rooted arrogance to doubt it and believe otherwise.

But this view is likely much to Holistic for many. :) Too Avatar!!... :lol: Sorry..... :walkingdead:
 
But this view is likely much to Holistic for many. Too Avatar!!...

That's an awful lot of words............
1) Decide what fish you want
2) Research their needs
3) Provide the environment they required
You won't go far wrong........

Although, occasionally dressing your cat up in a funny outfit can be very amusing...

(However cats in costume are funny :))
 
Definition of Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively

Definition of Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

I think there are animal lovers and there are other animal lovers. Majority of people have lost their ability to feel empathy towards other human beings and especially animals, least likely fish. People confuse respect and sympathy for animals with empathy but the latter is not a learnt trait/behavior. You either have empathy or you don't, When you don't, you're very unlikely to see fish or other animals as equally sentient as one self.

There are many recorded cases of fish helping humans in need and humans helping fish in need. And there are cases where a fish ate a human and a human ate a fish....So why do we humans feel so pompous about ourselves?

I know some people don't like seeing humanity in this way but I consider humans the highest form of parasite. Let's see the definition of parasite below...... :p

Parasite: an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

Does that remind you of humans in anyway....:rolleyes:
.
 
Always amused how quickly this topic which comes up frequently quickly becomes soap box for all thing's philosophical..
Believe as other's have stated ,,that providing for our pet's as best we can,is about all there is and should be primary concern in this particular hobby.
Plenty of room for improvement all around would be my unsolicited view or opinion.
I can see increases in fishes health and or activity level's as direct result of maint on my glass boxes of water.
Can observe negative reactions as well with lapse maint.
As to whether fishes can express humanistic qualities,, Much room for interpretation which I happily leave for other's to muse over.
Can say without question, that the beliefs shared ,are not always shared by other's.
 
Thank you Zozo for posting this! I recently experienced a 'sulking' unhappy Endler's Guppy when new tank mates were introduced, he started by hiding at the bottom of the tank and being aggressive to the others (not the usual play display). At first I assumed he was ill but after reading a few posts on similar experiences I do believe it was unhappiness. Needless to say over the following days he gradually got used to the newcomers and is now part of the little gang again, thoroughly enjoying life as only Endler's do! I've always thought that it was just a 'female thing' to apply human emotions to living creatures, but if anyone takes time to really observe their pet's behaviour you can pick up on how they're feeling. Thank you for posting links to the books, I shall take a good look!
 
apply human emotions to living creatures

Well that's the thing.. We are the only ones and came up with the Term Human Emotions.. I guess that's an ancient supremacy gen still lurking.
But one day maybe we can all come to the consensus we are actualy only talking about Emotions and there is nothing particularly supreme nor human about it.

It's a heart, Gut, Bowel, Nerve and Brain thing triggered by Neuro Transmitters.. And all that lives has this or else it can't live.. We can't know what emotions it experiences.. It might as well surpass ours by a factor 1000.

IMHO real supremacy hides in not thinking lesser of what lives with you. :thumbup: It doesn't mean you shouldn't swap a housefly.. You just shouldn't think of it as a zombie with an erection and apetite for food only.. :rolleyes:
 
We are the only ones and came up with the Term Human Emotions.. I guess that's an ancient supremacy gen still lurking.
I couldn't agree more!!! I've always thought that we should stop looking for martians and start looking in the ocean!
It doesn't mean you shouldn't swap a housefly
As someone trying to practise Zen Buddhism I disagree there zozo (though when it comes to mosquitos I do struggle)! However I do agree every living thing deserves to be happy and I for one will strive to make sure the critters/plants etc in our care are. Right that's my Yoda,
soap box for all thing's philosophical
over!
 
As someone trying to practise Zen Buddhism I disagree there zozo (though when it comes to mosquitos I do struggle)! However I do agree every living thing deserves to be happy and I for one will strive to make sure the critters/plants etc in our care are. Right that's my Yoda,

Yes me too, till i get hungry... :) Everybody has to make his own choices in this and absolutely OK to disagree.. Zen Buddhism is nice and has a lot of beautifull ancient wisdom and fragments we can use for the best.. So personaly i like to filter out what i can use and apply in the society i'm (indirectly) forced to live in. The majority of Zen Buddhisme only works if you live as a secluded monk in the Himalaya and not in the overcrowded little country i live in. :) No pun intended, that's my personal opinion on it and many surely will not agree, i'm ok with that.

I killed my own chicken to make a delicious soup or buy animal products others did kill for me.. I'm ok with the idea that i'm a predatory meat eater that needs to kill.. But for me that still doesn't mean that i try to excuse my kill to think lesser of it's capability to feel emotions as i do. Because i don't and can't know.. And i refuse to lie to myself thinking i know. :) That would be the dumbest excuse..
 
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