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First time tanker, in Aberdeen.

Anstapor

Anstapor

Seedling
Joined
27 Aug 2015
Messages
12
Location
Aberdeen
Hello folks. 🙂

As the thread title says I'm brand new to the hobby in all it's forms - never had a tank, an aquatic plant, nor a fish! I have patience though so have not rushed in blindly. I've been purchasing equipment slowly, while reading up on the multitude on information (overload!) available to help.

So I have a Juwel Vision 180, Eheim Pro 3 350, Hydor 300w external, 18l of ADA Amazonia soil, 25kg of Baltic Rock, 12.5kg Unipac Nyassa sand and a nice, smallish, bit of Redmoor root.

I have a few dumb questions, as you may imagine.

My plan, such as it is, is to have a low tech setup as even the beginner plants are interesting to me, being new and all that. Rough aquascape plan is to have roughly 2/3 on the base covered with Amazonia, edged and capped with the rock but with enough spaces in between for plants. The other third will be the sand and kept 100% growth free. So, I was going to keep the 2 substrates entirely separate with cardboard while building, and then remove that once it's all in place as I don't really want them mixing.

Questions I have -

1. Should I lock the Amazonia away in nylons? It seems quite common advice but possibly not necessary for me as I will not be capping it with sand, only rocks and plants.

2. When it comes to fishless cycling, most guides do not mention water changes until later in the process but I've noticed advice on here about doing changes as much as daily, in the early stages! Would this not impact the guidelines for fishless cycling? I'm having trouble reconciling the two things. Oh, light as well - the guides mention not bothering with lighting because algae likes the conditions during the cycle, but the plants would need it, surely.

3. I've read about the low tech plants so have an idea of what to use. The one I'm unsure of it the best short, grasslike plant to use. I won't be heavily planting as I do want to see the hardscape, but would like to use a shorter grasslike plant in various places. Can even be moss I guess, but there's such an amount of stuff I'm just not sure.

I think that's it for now!

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer this n00b. 😀
 
Anstapor said:
My plan, such as it is, is to have a low tech setup
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You will fail at the first post, as the standard Juwel Vision 180 lighting (both T8 and T5 tubes) put this tank firmly in the "high light" category, thus source of carbon (CO2 or liquid carbon) and supply of fertilisers and water changes will be required. (OK maybe only T8 with reflectors).

If you wish to have low tech you will need to lower the light levels, possibly 1/2 for T8 tubes and 1/3-1/4 for T5 tubes. eg insulation tape, foil rings, frosted plastic sheets, no reflectors.

I ran with T8 tubes & high tech no problem for years. Maybe one or two issues at startup (diatoms), due to be so keen to raise light levels too early before tank had "settled in".
 
Thanks for the prediction of doom! 😉

I do have fertiliser and liquid CO2 recommended by the chap at Aqua Essentials. I actually BOUGHT the Hiflex reflectors during the early stages of equipment purchase, while I was still reading up about stuff, but did later realise that I wouldn't need them. I figured I could simply take out 1 tube, for example and then use a reflector on the other. But from what you said, perhaps even that would be too much. I'm happy enough, if it works, to run on one tube (35W) with no reflector - that would be low enough, no?

Edit : Okay, just been Googling and apparently that isn't possible, but turning one of the reflectors upside down, and removing the other reflector would be suitable, perhaps?
 
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The Juwel lighting units need two tubes to work, you can't just remove one tube.

Try running without reflectors.

As using liquid carbon, this is moving high tech (despite lower light levels), thus will require frequent (maybe not as much as EI high light 50% once a week) and decent fertiliser levels. You will have to just suck it an see, as they say.

My mate has a low light (single T5 tube with foil rings on it over 100l) and uses 1/2-1/4 dose liquid carbon every couple of days and 1/2-1/4 dose EI liquid ferts every couple of days and water changes when ever he remembers and suffers no algae BUT plants grow slowly compared to my high tech tank and appears very dim in my eyes....🙂
 
Slow growth is fine with me - as I said, I am patient - as long as it's healthy (ie plants not struggling to exist) growth I don't mind. I thought the differentiator between Low and High tech was basically using a proper CO2 setup or not - I kind of want to keep things at a relatively simple level for now, being a n00b. Adding a proper CO2 setup, in time, is a distinct possibility.

I figured I'd get some Amano shrimp to help fend off any algae issues - that and the fact I just think having them will add to the appeal of the tank as a whole.

Will the fact I won't plant TOO heavily help with all this? Presumably I can use a little less liquid CO2, or less often?
 
Anstapor said:
I thought the differentiator between Low and High tech was basically using a proper CO2 setup or not
Click to expand...
Or addition liquid carbon, makes it high tech.

Well not quite'ish. All driven by light, higher light means addition of carbon source and fertilisers is required. You may add CO2/liquid carbon to low light, if you want to, but plants will not be able to use it (in any quantity) as light is low.

Below is the standard graph in getting an idea of high, medium or low level light for a tank.

For Vision 180 @ 20" deep, T8 (no reflector, but x2 for two tubes) is in low light range (maybe 20 PAR ?). Adding reflector roughly doubles it to, so moving to medium light (40 PAR). T5 HO tubes no reflector are 60-70 PAR (medium) and with reflector are over 120 PAR so well and truly high light.
PARvsDistVariousBulbs2.jpg
 
Interesting stuff! Thanks for that - see, this is why I'm asking questions and happy to take things slowly. 🙂
 
Welcome!
Patience is good!
Have a look at the tutorial section, i would advise to look into the soil based tanks. They are very good at low energy, no need for an aquasoil (keep that for if you want to go high energy) and can be very nice. More room for mistakes.
 
Also at slow energy, fish poo (and rotting plant matter) acts perfectly well as your carbon and fertiliser source.
 
I had a peek and saw a "hybrid energy" tutorial there, but saw nothing specifically about "low energy".

To be honest I thought I'd got to a base where I could start this wee project - from a pile of stuff to the start of the tank! Now I'm just more confused than ever. I specifically stated to two well regarded online retailers where I was coming from (newbie, wanted easy beginner plants, light to mid planted, lots of patience) and the Aquasoil and fert/liquid CO2 purchases were direct results from that advice. Bit disappointed if they were just looking for sales especially as I always vote with my feet and avoid shops if they look short term sales, rather than long.

Can I "make do" with the Amazonia? I don't really have the storage for it, and don't want to spend more on dirt 😉 if I don't have to.

I played about with the reflectors and I can basically get to very low light conditions (including blanking the back one, and angling the front one forward where I will have no plants, just sand) so I think I'm okay there at least, despite earlier worries on that front! 🙂
 
Edvet said:
Sure you can, just soil tanks are cheaper and work good. Amazonia you'll need to read up "howto"🙂
Click to expand...

I've read what I thought I needed to know, that's part of the issue. 😕 Advice from everyone is different, it seems like everyone does things differently. Which is fine, of course, but it's hard to distil that down to an individual starter situation. Well, it is for me anyway. :banghead: I'll try again.
 
As I said above - I told a well respected online (and real shop) retailer what tank I had, that I was brand new to the hobby, and what I was looking at creating - no CO2, easy beginner plants, fairly lightly planted as I wanted to see a lot of the hardscape, lots of patience - and it was suggested I get 3 bags of 9l Amazonia for that tank. I knocked it down to 2 knowing that I wanted areas of pure sand where there would never be growth.

Here was my email to them (and they didn't mention in their reply that I had way too much light either!) -

Hi.

I have a few questions!

First of all, I am brand spanking new to all things aquarium and am slowly picking up just how involved the whole thing is. I am patient though, and in no rush to throw a bucketload of rocks, plants and fish into my tank - I'm willing to take my time. For info on where I'm coming from and what I'm looking for...

I have a Juwel Vision 180 with standard equipment except that I also bought the Hiflex reflectors to increase light usage from the 2 x 35watt T5 lamps. So I want to start this hobby from a place of "not too much overload" but I also don't want a dull looking tank. To be honest I didn't even consider aquascaping when I first decided to get an aquarium as I was only really approaching it from the fish angle. But as soon as I thought about it I knew I wanted a natural backdrop and real plants (and no sunken galleons!)

I'm some way from kicking the whole thing off as I'm only starting to build my custom aquarium base this weekend (the normal ones are too high for what I want) but I notice that you have 20% only until the end of today so wanted to, if possible, take advantage of that! So, I want to avoid a CO2 system initially and I want to avoid an "overly" planted tank. Sometimes less is more, I feel - I do like a decent amount of exposed rock/wood/gravel. I also want to avoid plants with massive leaves as I feel these make the tank look smaller. I do like the more delicate plants but am aware my choices may be limited, given the fact I'm using stock lighting (albeit with reflectors) and no CO2. So I know I won't get to true levels of aquascaping excellence, but if I can get off to a good start, well, it's a start!

Where you can help is to advise me what I can buy now, in preparation for the tank - primarily substrate, gravel/sand, wood and rock, that can help me achieve this... before your 20% off runs out! 😉 As well as which substrate and gravel, also how much I need - with the bowed front of the Vision 180 I'm not sure of the surface area.

I'm happy to spend, say, an extra hour a week maintaining the aquascape, on top of the usual stuff as I don't want the greenery to take over the tank - I'd like to maintain decent patches of rock and sand/gravel. On the sand/gravel thing - I'm not sure what coarseness to get, I'm thinking a fine gravel (or coarse sand!) rather than chunky gravel or fine sand. Fine sand seems like it might be a bit harder to maintain, and overly coarse gravel, like the big plant leaves, makes the tank look smaller I feel.

I have removed the filter/heater unit with the intention of moving it to the other side of the tank but now it's out I may just get an external. But depending on money I may have to reuse it for now.

Sorry for the length of this - I just wanted to give a reasonable background and idea of what I'm after.

Regards,
 
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I don't think the shop did you wrong - they listened to what you said & used their experience/bias to support your existing tank (I suspect they'll work with you to sort out any problems).

This is an older George Farmer article from PFK using a setup very similar to what you've been "sold"
PFK has a series of George Farmer articles that may be worth reading, also check out George's recent journals on UKAPS (I've only linked the one)

Given your setup & stated preferences, I'd sort out an aquascape - Troi's been having fun with this one 😀
To help keep your sand tidy, you might consider (clear) plastic divider rather than cardboard as you can then leave the divider in place.
I would not direct lamp light towards the sand area as this will encourage nice green algae (consider a Twinstar to discourage the green algaes - George Farmer mentions his experience in the Week 0 video), stirring up the sand will help discourage algae entrenchment (perhaps a nice group of sand sifting fish 😉)

After deciding on an aquascape, flood the tank & allow it to cycle - ammonia levels of ~2ppm ammonia will encourage the "first" N-cycle bacteria, higher levels begin to have inhibitory effects on the growth of the bacteria of interest ... with ADA Amazonia, levels may rise in the 10-20ppm range, so I'd go with daily 50% water changes ... or every 2nd or 3rd day as you can easily manage, or weekly etc
The tank will cycle, depending on management, this may take 2 weeks or 8 weeks etc
Use this time to practise maintenance techniques, sort out your filter flow etc

Once the tank has cycled, order in your plants - crypts will appreciate that the tank is already established & that nutrient rich substrate (which make sorting out any water column fertilizers much easier as plants are less dependent on water column levels), if you look on Tropica's website you can find "easy" layouts that have been done without CO2 (or lower levels of CO2), take note of the plants that have done well in the time lapse photos or video.
I do find that plants always appreciate CO2 addition even in low light situations ... but then I have very soft water.

As the tank is cycled, you can add in an algae crew (amano shrimp, cherry shrimp, otocinclus) almost immediately, they'll sort out algae as it appears so can be very effective helpers
example,
Day 0, I'd plant, perform a large water change after planting to remove any muck that's come up from the soil area
Day 1, another large water change, then add in the shrimp etc,
thereafter perform water changes as suits your schedule - but I'd do at least 50% weekly while tank becomes established; if you observe plant melt, increase water changes
Day 7 or 14, add in some fish
When adding in fish, I always increase water change frequency as daily 25% water changes is one of the best disease "treatments" - if you don't run a quarantine tank it's important to choose your source & fish carefully, then provide optimum water conditions.

If you start up another topic in Journals or Planted Tank Discussion, listing your setup details (& objective in title), you'll likely receive various ideas - thing about aquaria keeping, is that many different approaches work & you can choose what suits 🙂
 
Hi alto and thanks for the big reply and lots of advice, I much appreciate you taking the time for all that! I will also check out those articles and see what I can pick up, cheers.

On your other advice - I have created a thread in the journals section, primarily on my proposed aquascape for now, ready and waiting to be pulled apart. 😉 I thought about using cut up drink bottles to permanently keep the substrates apart, but didn't know if that plastic was safe, or if it would somehow negatively affect water flow through the substrates. I can't mount the Eheim spray bar on the side of the tank as it's too narrow (the tank, not the bar) so will be rear mounting it meaning any flow will be from the back top. There would be precious little flow through with a barrier there, but maybe I'm overthinking and it's simply not an issue.

I do plan to have sand loving fish - in fact the ONLY fish I am 100% sure of so far is the one in my avatar - Sterbai Corys - saw them in the LFS and loved the little critters. 😀 I also quite like the idea of a few shrimp but not fussed about colour so thought Amanos would be a good idea, help with any potential algae issues. 2 birds with one stone and all that.

Anyway, thanks again - I'll take a copy of the technical info and digest that too. 🙂
 
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