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EI calculators

Martin cape

Member
Joined
21 Dec 2012
Messages
611
Location
Workington
Hi guys,

How come the various EI calculators out there are all different? I have been using the one on the Fluid Sensor website and my phosphate levels have reached over 20ppm over the months I've been using it. Been doing my 50% weekly changes too.

I have found this calculator online which is different, anyone used this one?
Yet Another Nutrient Calculator

Says to use a lot less Monopotassium phosphate than I've been using. Could this be the reason I'm getting some algae?
 
Do these figures look right for my macro solution?
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Have you tried APC fertilator?

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It looks accurate to me.

Otherwise, you can try calculating the ppm yourself to verify.
 
I don't want to do it myself lol. Had enough problems doing it through my A Level in Chemistry.
 
It's probably nothing to do with the calculator. Your particular tank just doesn't use up as much phosphates, presuming your test is accurate. I know in my tank with EI dosing and 50% water changes the TDS was creeping up slowly, although not sure what exacty was building up.
EI is not bullet proof. 50% water changes won't magically reset something that is not used up and is dosed up regularly. Then your tap water, or your fish food maybe rich in that too.
 
Heh. It took me some time to calculate them manually and to relearn molar mass. I even had them in a spreadsheet to calculate the ppm in each dosage.

Eventually, I found out about Wet's calculator or APC's fertilator. It is so much easier with them.

Do remember to keep a copy of the mixture recipe. It will come handy when you need to recall the concentration or increase the dosage per ml. I have a mixture of MG for months and I can't remember whether I'm dosing 5 ppm or 10 ppm per week.
 
Yea I'm guessing its not being used up. Then I get green spot algae which is supposed to be low phosphate level. 20ppm is not low lol. It's 10x ideal amount.

Yea I used an Ion Chromatography system to test it but think that gives total Phosphate, whereas normal over the counter phosphate test only tests for 1 specific phosphate anion.
 
Yea I like calculators. Very easy. I'm going to use either wet or apc I think. Been using fluid sensor one and probably dosing too much phosphate so ill try a new one I think.
 
Yea I'm guessing its not being used up. Then I get green spot algae which is supposed to be low phosphate level. 20ppm is not low lol. It's 10x ideal amount.

Not necessarily. It could be just an imbalance between K, N and P. I'd try decreasing the phosphate, or even stop dosing until it's used up, and at the same time increase KNO3. Another option is I came across another forum that works with high light(3WPG and over) and injected CO2 tanks(presuming your CO2 is at it's optimum/maximum level)

1. 50% water change(or whatever is needed to bring the phosphate back down, presuming your tap water isn't the source to the high phosphates)
2. Stopt fertilizing at all.
3. Clean the GSA (This is your indicator) every day.
4. Add Po4 every day. The doze is a gram every 500 gallons.
5. Repeat #3 and #4 until GSA doesn't show up again.
6. The amount of Po4 you needed to stop GSA is the doze you should use per week.
7. 50% water change on the 7th day.

To explain the science behind this, GSA is a type of algae that appears when all other algaes have been outbattled and you are near balance but not there yet. You need not worry about the other nutritients while doing this because if your plants were well fed, they'll be fine for that period of time. The test is to show you how much phosphate you need in order to prevent GSA and not cause imbalance in your particular system.

So for example after daily dosing, if on day 5 of dosing PO4 the GSA doesn't appear anymore, then 5 days multiplied by your daily dose is the weekly dose your tank and all its unique balance is what it consumes and will keep it free of GSA, without overdosing. You should spread that dose across the week for future dosing.
If the GSA doesn't clear up withing the first 7 days, then do another 50% water change and double the daily dose of phosphates, repeating the cycle. If it takes lets say another two days afterwards for the GSA to clear, then your weekly dose will be the total amount you dosed the first week plus the amount you dosed the couple of days of the new week. All this should be spread around your weekly dose to prevent GSA.

This way you'll know nearly how much you need without causing disbalance.
 
Edit: You can induce GSA in a similar manner using the same method, but adding KNO3 at 1g per 50G until you see GSA appearing, or doubling the dose after the 7days and water change, etc...(this should be started with minimal po4 levels in the tank) By not adding any other fertilizers, the KNO3 added will soon help the PO4 in the water be consumed, leading to GSA, hence the method. That's the amount of KNO3 needed for your tank/flora/CO2 combo per week. You use GSA as a reference, because this is the near perfect balance. After that you resume dosing using the new KNO3 amount you calculate and your PO4 amount you calculated in your previous test, instead of the EI dose that didn't work for you.
 
..How come the various EI calculators out there are all different? I have been using the one on the Fluid Sensor website and my phosphate levels have reached over 20ppm over the months I've been using it. Been doing my 50% weekly changes too.
Martin,
You need to stop worrying about this. It doesn't matter what recipe you use. You will not solve your problem by changing recipes, and you can always adjust any recipe you use based on the conditions that you observe. See my comments in the thread EI Newbie, totally confused lol | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Says to use a lot less Monopotassium phosphate than I've been using. Could this be the reason I'm getting some algae?
NO it can't. In freshwater tanks, high levels of PO4 cannot cause algae. You may not realize that GSA is caused either by poor PO4, or poor CO2, or by both. If you are adding lots of PO4 and the algae does not abate, then you know the cause is either poor CO2 or poor flow or both.

Hand wringing over recipes is a complete waste of time.

Cheers,
 
I am not sure this is allowed, so please delete if it's a problem but I can't find the article separately. However, it is worth the read in relation to CO2/Light/fertilizer dosing and why EI can still be a limiting factor.
@ Ceg4808: I did not suggest that PO4 is causing algae, but that imbalance of P04 and other fertilizers can.

Method of Controlled Imbalances Summary - Algae - Aquatic Plant Central
 
Thanks guys. I know I do look at things at too much detail at times. Just like to get to the bottom of the problem.

I know with EI the ratio of nitrate to phosphate is approx. 10:1, however after a few weeks it stabilises at 2:1. Could that be the imbalance referred?

Another quick question, my tap water has 3 ppm phosphate in it, I'm led to believe that's the range I'm aiming for when dosing. Do I need to dose phosphate?

Thanks a lot :)
 
I did not suggest that PO4 is causing algae, but that imbalance of P04 and other fertilizers can.
No, this is just another clever way of saying that nutrients cause algae. You need to forget about imbalance because that doesn't cause algae either. Algae is caused by deficiency, not imbalance or ratios. Ratios have no place in this scheme. You can use any ratio you want as long as you are not below the minimum threshold for any given nutrient.

Cheers,
 
No, this is just another clever way of saying that nutrients cause algae. You need to forget about imbalance because that doesn't cause algae either. Algae is caused by deficiency, not imbalance or ratios. Ratios have no place in this scheme. You can use any ratio you want as long as you are not below the minimum threshold for any given nutrient.

Cheers,

That's the strange thing, I understand that in case to get algae we are more probably limiting the nutritients somewhere, wether it being CO2 or fertlilizers, etc...
But the problem is no one can explain once you convert to high tech for example, why there's seemingly something that drives the shortage. For example, I have 4 tanks, one fertlized with nutritients and liquid CO2 and 3 with nothing at all. I do grow easy plants in the 3 low tech plants but I have 0 algae in them, including one of them suffering meltdown after the subsrate change, but still didn't get any algae at all. One of them has the same light as my "high tech" tank.
The supposedly "higher tech" one suffered from algae on an ugly scale. I did dose EI rates for a long time, increased the liquid carbon but no luck. One would say I still didn't put enough, but then the truth is that then EI dosing as explained, is limiting too. The more stuff I put, the more my plants wanted I guess. So what is driving this imbalance? Which one of the stuff I already dumped on high scale should I increase? It's worth noting that this tank never had any problem like this before it was dosed with CO2 and nutritients, light and lighting period remained the same.
After seeing my plants being destroyed for so long and increasing nutritients, I went the opposite way and decreased certain nutritients without decreasing the liquid carbon or light. 4 weeks down the road the algae stopped but the plants still grew healthy. Did the algae just go dormant, I don't know, but at least no more algae is growing and the plants look healthier. So why did this happen? How come I balanced it out with that? Are actually nutritients a driving force for growth too, not only CO2 and light?
 
Hi,
Well, comparing a CO2 enriched tank to a non-enriched tank is like comparing a Formula 1 race car to a Metro Bus. Although the processes are the same, the rates of chemical reactions within the plant are vastly different.

The addition of CO2 fundamentally changes not only the structure and chemical makeup of the plant, but it also radically alters the metabolic functions that occur.

If you imagine that a plant is like a factory complete with a moving assembly line this will help to visualize the how and why things go wrong. The whole point of light, CO2 and nutrients is to build a final product which is a sugar. The plant then eats the sugar to gain energy and to grow, and any excess sugar is stored in silos for future hard times.

CO2 is THE most important ingredient for making the sugar. Without CO2, shining a light on a plant is about as effective as boiling it in a soup. Plants produce what is probably the single most important enzyme called Ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate carboxylase oxygenase, normally abbreviated to "RuBisCO". All carbohydrates on the planet are made possible by the action of this very complicated enzyme. Here is a typical image:
rubisco-molecule1.jpg


The areas in dark grey and light grey are the areas on the enzyme where individual CO2 molecules are attracted and held. They are then transported to an area where the Carbon portion of CO2 is combined with other molecules to create a form of glucose.

Despite its huge importance in life, RuBisCO is, by enzyme standards, rather slow, with a turnover rate of between 3 and 10 CO2 molecules per second. Typical enzyme reaction rates are somewhere around 1/2 million molecules per second. So the first two severe limitations to this enzyme are:
1. Complicated and energy expensive molecule for a plant to manufacture, which may require a few weeks to adjust the levels.
2. Very slow reaction rate.

The central role of RuBisCO in the process of photosynthesis means that it must be tightly regulated, to ensure that it is active only where and when it should be. One important layer of this regulation is the activation of RuBisCO at the beginning of the day. During the night, the RuBisCO active sites are blocked by inhibitors. So, at the beginning of the photoperiod, the plant then has to re-activate the binding sites by removing the inhibitors from the CO2 binding sites. This means that there is another set of proteins which are sensitive to light. There are additional regulators to ensure that RuBisCO only operates at daytime. Magnesium typically increases as the chlorophyl molecules become active so the sensors monitor the movement of Mg++. So here is a third limitation:
3. Activation of the enzyme is very slow at the beginning of the photoperiod. The RuBisCO in algae is more efficient because algae have a mechanism which concentrates CO2 and holds it, so they respond very quickly to the daylight. This is why siestas are a very bad idea.

Competing with CO2 for RuBisCO binding sites are O2 molecules. As both CO2 and O2 are small gaseous molecules, and moreover as RuBisCO evolved at a time when atmospheric oxygen concentrations were negligible, RuBisCO does not have perfect specificity for CO2 over O2,, i.e, it cannot tell that Oxygen has bonded instead of CO2. This is a problem for plants and algae because the Oxygen activity reduces the sugar yield. So there is a fourth and fifth limitation:
4. Oxygen availability reduces the efficiency and sugar yield of RuBisCO.
5. When RuBisCO reacts with Oxygen this results in a product called Phosphoglycollate, which cannot be converted into sugar and instead, the plant performs a function called photo-respiration which results in dangerous radical formation such as Hydrogen Peroxide, which is highly toxic to the plant.

In a low tech, non-CO2 enriched environment, because the CO2 levels are low and constant, and because the metabolic rates are also very low, the plant has time to slowly increase the RuBisCO content of the leaves.

In a high tech CO2 enriched environment, plant actually reduces the concentration of RuBisCO, because there is less need for this expensive and high maintenance protein if CO2 availability is high. However our total incompetence at maintaining a steady state high CO2 concentration means that the the plants are forever seeing changes in the level of CO2 which commands a production rate changes and confuses the plant. Have you ever tried steering a large boat or lorry? When you turn the wheel the vehicle dose not respond right away so you turn it some more, then suddenly the rate at which it turns accelerates so you correct in the opposite direction and you suddenly find that vehicle becomes a yo-yo. That is what the plants try to deal with in our tanks.

When you add CO2 the assembly line in that factory speeds up. Sugar production rate increases and so this requires that the nutrients accumulation also speeds up. More CO2 results in a higher demand for Nitrogen. More Nitrogen creates a higher demand for Phosphorous. More Phosphorous creates a higher demand for Potassium and so on and so forth.

Likewise, adding more Phosphorous drives a higher demand for Nitrogen and adding more Nitrogen creates a higher demand for CO2. So when you start adding more of one thing you yourself create a shortage for something else. So that's why there are so many problems in a CO2 enriched tank and that's another reason why ratios can have such a profound negative effect, because no one can monitor any ratio and no one knows, under any given condition, how much of what is needed at any one time.

People always seem to assume that adding CO2 to a tank will automatically solve their problems but they are wrong. Adding CO2 only changes the type and speed of your problems. The concept of EI is to add more than the plants will ever need and so if you see a deficiency then you have to fix the deficiency of that nutrient, not play with ratios or balances.

Because people have not yet learned how to identify nutritional deficiencies, they often add the wrong things, or worse, they actually stop adding the right things, which makes their problems more acute. There are almost an infinite number of ways to screw up a CO2 tank and that's because CO2 has so many far ranging effects. Therefore, if you have a problem in a CO2 enriched tank, there is a 95% probability that it's due to incompetent CO2 administration.

Cheers,
 
Thanks for a thorough explanation. I read about Rubisco as well

So according to this,

More Nitrogen creates a higher demand for Phosphorous. More Phosphorous creates a higher demand for Potassium and so on and so forth.

Likewise, adding more Phosphorous drives a higher demand for Nitrogen and adding more Nitrogen creates a higher demand for CO2.

This renders formulas like EI, PMDD, etc...useless because first you don't learn to think outside the box and in fact one is caught into a never ending circle where if you add too much of one thing, then you need to scrap all your dosage understandings for the other and add more of it as well...that's if you have any idea what shortage you've created. But EI tells you for example that the nutritient dosages suggested by this method are more than enough for the highest demanding tank, which catches us up in a trap we can't get out from.
We know also that CO2 and light are driving more demand for nutritients too. We know that providing less of that, demands less of the plants, they grow slower etc...So either way, it is a balance between all to have healthy plants. It's up to one's needs to decide whether they want fast growing or slow growing tank. And now you are also confirming for example that higher nutritient dosage can create demands for other nutritients and eventually CO2.
So in fact you are saying what I said, it's about the balance. Add more Potassium, you'd need more Nitrogen, too much posphorous, and you'd need more potassium, then at the end you'll end up needing more CO2 again, so this doesn't mean that 95% of people are incompetent CO2 administrators. It means they don't know they are creating more demand using their current nutritient method because no theory addresses that. And then we don't even take into account what comes in the tank via your weekly water changes or fish food, which based on your words too, could be creating an even higher demand for other things.

And then again, coming back to my low tech tanks. They did suffer from defficiencies from time to time, Some plants showed yellowing, some showed lack of nitrogen like smaller yellow leaves, some corrected themselves, I have no idea how, some plants did not like it at all and died, some of them thrive and grow like weeds(not sure if allelopathy plays a role or possibly it depends what my particular tank water contains via the water changes and fish food I put in considering I can't keep java fern and floating plants alive)But as I mentioned, even a complete meltdown(planst just went into mush) did not cause an algae outbreak. So the nutritient defficiencies alone are not the trigger in my opinion.

And sorry to keep rambling about it, but it is for example said that high organic waste, dirty filters, dirty pipes, etc..on one hand can trigger algae. But organic waste in filters is just another name for nutritients leaking in the water column. Hence the Japanese use nutritient rich soil and lean water column and don't use mechanical media in the filters that traps waste there. So that leads me again to believe that inbalance and overload of certain nutritients triggers algae, possibly creating more demand for other things too but who is going to confirm.
 
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