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CRS, TDS and GH

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
879
Location
Birmingham
Last year a got a bunch of nice quality cherry shrimp but they all died off over the course of a couple of months.

I initially put this down to the tank not being mature enough but I am about to replace the shrimp and I am wondering if my water is an issue.

My water is reasonably hard (KH5/GH12) and TDS out the tap is ~260 and ~310 in tank (will double check tonight). I do see lots of people saying cherry shrimp are fine in just about anything but also a lot of threads about shrimp mysteriously dying.

I think the main concern is GH and I have read some articles that too high a value means their shell gets to hard and they cannot moult. Is this a valid concern? I don't really want to get into mixing tap water with RO and changing parameters but equally so I don't fancy wiping out another colony....
 
Like you've said i think one of the main things that RCS struggle with and makes more of a difference that it gets mentioned, is being introduced into an immature tank

The other thing would be adapting to new parameters, if they have came from a local breeder/LFS and are used to that water then it'll be fine, if they've lived their life in softer water then they might struggle.

Get as young shrimp as you can and they are more likely to adapt better and once you get them breeding then they will be completely fine as they have been raised in that water. For me that's how they are adaptable, not shifting between soft to hard as adults
 
The other thing would be adapting to new parameters, if they have came from a local breeder/LFS and are used to that water then it'll be fine, if they've lived their life in softer water then they might struggle.

RCS in LFS are in similar conditions but are very low grade where as I guess a lot of specialist shrimp sellers online keep their RCS in the same conditions as the CRS and others. Sourcing them is my next dilemma....
 
If you're sure they're really Neocardinia davidi, then my experience with them is that you cannot kill them unless you have too much nitrites, ammonia, copper or predators (West African cichlids are the worst in my experience). I breed them for my own tanks and for friends and despite all the worried concern from the LFS employees (in the beginning), they do well everywhere. I have been using breeding tanks for the reds and pumpkins, but I have the best colour in heavily planted tanks with GH of 4 (extra Equilibrium required to raise it from 3), KH of zero to 2ish, and a pH of down to 5.1 during the lights on period (up to 6.2 at night). I have reds, pumpkins and yellows in heavily planted tanks, and I don't acclimate them anymore when moving them from one tank to another. I always need to give them away to keep their numbers in check. I don't feed them anything except Spirulina twice a week and they're great algae grazers and general tank cleaners. Also, I set up a tank in a home with very hard water from a well (KH of 18, GH of 20 plus), and they did just as well. Very red, very large for cherries, and the Amanos in the same tank were the biggest I've ever seen.
 
Do you have a local fish group on facebook? Might be able to find some other local shrimp keepers there with better colours. I guess the other option is to start a small shrimp tank and match the sellers water, then gradually match it to your own tank. Gives you a breeding population to restock from too.

Where your originals breeding? Just wondering if it was the originals you lost or also the later generations.
 
Do you have a local fish group on facebook? Might be able to find some other local shrimp keepers there with better colours. I guess the other option is to start a small shrimp tank and match the sellers water, then gradually match it to your own tank. Gives you a breeding population to restock from too.

Where your originals breeding? Just wondering if it was the originals you lost or also the later generations.
I got 10 really nice looking shrimp from Sharnbrook Shrimp who closed down shortly afterwards, I do think they were probably all adult shrimp as they were a fair size. They lasted just over a month IIRC. They seemed quite happy for a few weeks then started dropping off one by one.

Forgot I had started https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/aqua-one-aspire-22-shrimp-tank.47761/ reminds me I should look at the mopani again...
 
I had a very similar experience when I first set up my shrimp tank, they seemed happy enough and even had one berried after a couple of weeks but still had some die off at a rate of approx 1 per day for a couple of weeks, I bought 2 lots of 10 shrimp and was down to 5 at one point

Made a few changes like improving flow/filter turn over, mineral stones, better food, but the most important thing I did was stop making changes for the sake of it if you are confident you meet all the basics, one of the big mistakes I think I made is making small changes every time one died to try and make it better when I was just chasing my tail as I was throw in the towel

Stick with your tap water, set it up for a month and dose bacter AE or similar to get a biofilm built up, settle on a ferts regime and stick to it and same with water changes, check your normal routine and check GH/TDS before and after your water change so you know the swing and if its wild or not, 50% water change once a week works with me

I (touch wood) seem to have turned the corner with mine and not had a death in a while and have around 40-50 shrimplets aging from a month to a day old at the minute

Just don't rush it and you'll get there
 
Tank is still up and running with three nerites in there. It is very well established now with lots of biofilm and some algae. Last time I don't think I changed much when they started dying off.

Flow however isn't something I have considered. I use a JBL Cristalprofi M which seems to create enough flow to keep the plants doing ok but one side of the tank doesn't have too much flow at all.
 
I think the main concern is GH and I have read some articles that too high a value means their shell gets to hard and they cannot moult. Is this a valid concern

My water stats are about identical to yours. I haven't had any issues with cherry shrimp at all, since I started keeping them about 6 years ago. Cherry shrimp are scavengers.They'be either on plants or on the sand picking up detritus, or on the glass if there's biofilm/algae. They'll never starve, as they greedily accept anything that goes into the tank. The only reason they may not do well is if the substrate is emitting something toxic to them. I only started with 5 adult shrimp and I got hundreds and thousands from them 5 shrimp over the years.
Is your tank a soil tank as the substrate may have gone bad. The tank could be low on oxygen. Can you describe in better detail your setup, amount of flow, water changes, fertilization, etc...I kept mine in planted and unplanted tank with same success so plants are not a requirement. Shrimp are sensitive to CO2, perhaps heavy fertilization and also water quality. They'll try to jump out if there's a water quality issue and will be flying around the tank trying to escape. Or they'll be stuck on one spot not grazing at all, just standing still. Shrimp are active, they have to be moving if healthy but they're neither static, nor flying around aimlessly. My shrimp set ups are high flow tanks and shrimp's favorite spot is on the moss on the spraybar...So they certainly love highly oxygenated tanks and they do very well in low temps around 20-ish. They'll also survive down to 12C at least, haven't tested any lower yet...
 
Can you describe in better detail your setup, amount of flow, water changes, fertilization, etc...

74f565a25eb6e559999a314b01728265.jpg


This is a 22l / 30cm cube kept ~20°C. Substrate is Tropica aquarium soil. The filter is rated at 200lph and is effectively a Hamburg Mat Filter. Ferts are currently a couple of squirts of Tropica specialised ferts (the one without NP). When shrimp where in I think I was dosing Excel. Currently doing weekly 50% weekly water changes but was doing 20% when shrimp were in there.

Your point about toxins does make me think. As in the original thread linked above I did come across some articles saying mopani was poisonous to shrimp. The wood had actually been out the tank for about a year and I ended up putting it back in last weekend in preparation for the shrimp. Wondering if I should remove this now.....
 
No idea about the mopani but maybe replace with a bit of cheap bogwood/driftwood to be on the safe side and go back to your 50% water changes and you're good to go
 
When shrimp where in I think I was dosing Excel

I'd suspect either the soil, the Excel definitely...When you have the shrimp, the more and bigger water changes, the better. The flow could be increased ideally but the tank's shape doesn't allow it that much I think. Perhaps after a while now the soil may have expelled whatever it had, unless it's gone anaerobic. I haven't heard of mopani being toxic to shrimp so I don't know about that.
 
Shrimp are fine with Tropica Soils & fertilizers
I've not observed adverse reaction to Seachem Excel but I dose this only at recommended dose & always dilute before adding

OTOH there are various threads about the shrimp keeping forums where posters are convinced they saw better breeding without Excel

As others mention, younger shrimp always seem to travel & adapt better than adult shrimp

No idea about the mopani (though I do have some wood sold as "mopani" that looks nothing like the usual root sold as such)
 
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I managed to kill my RCS first go in a tank that had been set up and cycled for 8 months. I put it down to me poorly matching TDS between fresh tap/Ro water and my existing tank water. I’ve drip fed every water change since and never had an issue. It is only 16 litre though so I can imagine this would take significantly longer on a higher tank. I also saw some odd behaviour when dosing liquid carbon and stopped, they’ve bred like mad every since.


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Haven't heard that about mopani before - maybe sometimes it's been treated like plants and that causes an issue sometimes but not others depending on the source.

Is there anything else living in the tank? I adjusted my cube to match the source, then gradually swapped back over a few weeks. I was going the other way (hard GH17 source, soft tank GH6) but should work the other way and then you only have to muck around with different water for a short period not forever. Seemed to work well had them about 2.5 months and got a hoard of babies of various sizes.
 
I put it down to me poorly matching TDS between fresh tap/Ro water and my existing tank water.

I think that's the biggest shrimp killer situation, not just cherry shrimp. When one is playing god with the water....I know we have no choice sometimes as tap water stats are a limitation for certain species but it is very difficult to keep anything alive in constantly fluctuating conditions. Shrimp, fish all like stability.
I think James's water is ideal for cherry shrimp. Something else was at play. As I said, it's most likely the soil gone bad or the Excel. Shrimp won't die instantly from excel but perhaps in time they will. I stopped dosing immediately after I saw some odd shrimp behavior and I haven't dosed excel in years, I just don't like putting a disinfectant in an organic tank....I'd rather have algae....
 
I managed to kill my RCS first go in a tank that had been set up and cycled for 8 months. I put it down to me poorly matching TDS between fresh tap/Ro water and my existing tank water. I’ve drip fed every water change since and never had an issue.

That's a really important point. And I agree with sciencefiction: When doing a water change, the incoming water needs to be similar in all respects to the water in the tank. For my breeding tanks I have a separate tank in which I prepare the water a week in advance to doing the water change. I do 50% water changes every two weeks but I really don't think WCs are as important as some think. It's more important that conditions be steady when it is done. I dose Equilibrium to get 200 TDS, and add water conditioner, and I make sure the temperatures match. I also have crushed coral in this make up tank for a little more calcium. As for circulation, I use sponge filters, so flow is very limited.

Also, I don't use heaters in the breeding tanks, and we have very cold winters here, during which the ambient temperature of my fish room is about 68 dF. So this is the temperature in the breeding tanks are for several months. But it's during the colder winters that they breed the most. And our summers here are very warm (ambient air temps in the fish room are in the mid 70s dF), and breeding rates comparatively slow at the higher temperatures.
 
So I bought 10 Bloody Mary shrimp online that had been bred in KH5/GH8 water.
Drip acclimated them over about 3.5 hours to get TDS within 10.

They have been in a week now and I haven't changed any water but last night I found one at the surface which looks like it had died trying to molt.
0018d177dd1442c9d6b68521f8d3e49d.jpg

Based on last time I left it to see whether it might pull through but I suspect it will be dead by time I get home.

Do I just keep with it and of I can get some other to accept the parameters then they will be better and offspring will be fine or do I need to think about getting the GH down a little?
 
Hi all,
Do I just keep with it and of I can get some other to accept the parameters then they will be better and offspring will be fine or do I need to think about getting the GH down a little?
I think they are selected form of Cherry Shrimp (Neocaridina davidi), in which case they will do better in harder water.

cheers Darrel
 
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