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CPD with ulcer

KirstyF

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Ive just been sent a pic by my Ma (who is babysitting fishes) of one of my CPD’s that appears to have an ulcer.

Not a good pic, though you might be able to see if you zoom in. (Ma popped it into a jug to take the photo, bless her, which I’m sure cheered it up!!)

Could be result of an injury, as they can be a little feisty with each other, and the fish has been hiding and not eating. The fact that she was able to catch it shows that it’s not a happy fish!

We could do an Esha2000 treatment to assist with any bacterial infection and promote healing? although I would have to treat the whole tank (hospital tank not ready yet). Other than that, any ideas on other likely causes or treatments?

My first thought is always water quality but I do 50-60% water changes weekly. Pre-filters cleaned weekly. Main filters are cleaned less often but one filter was cleaned weekend before last and second filter was cleaned weekend just gone. Neither were massively dirty. TDS was within normal expected parameters at the weekend. (Hard water and EI so it’s always high but it’s normal high)

Looks like it’s just a single fish at the minute but I’m not home til Friday this week so no personal observations.

Pic:
52B2F734-3480-439F-96E1-961E773EF537.jpeg
 

xZaiox

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Ulcers can generally vary quite widely in severity as well as causes. They can arise from nipping, injurys (such as scrapes), parasites, or from certain bacterial infections, yes. Sometimes the infections are mild, sometimes they can take down fish quickly, and sometimes they can be more chronic (such as via mycobacterium/fish tb). Mild ulcers can sometimes be cured by just doing very large water changes daily, or using aquarium salt, but due to how large that ulcer is in proportion to the size of the fish, I would probably want to treat that with something.
the fish has been hiding and not eating
If I'm honest, this is not often a good sign, and these symptoms in combination with the size of the ulcer, I would probably reach for an antibiotic such as Seachem's Kanaplex (kanamycin), or API's Fin & Body Cure (Doxycycline). If it is not possible to get an antibiotic then eSHA's 2000 could be worth a go. I would always advise dosing meds outside of the main tank if treating individual fish (due to the impacts on the biological balance of the tank), but it'll likely not do much harm to use eSHA's 2000 in the main tank, it primarily affects gram positive bacteria. I guess it depends on whether or not you consider the risks vs benefits worth it.

Hope some of this helps.
 

KirstyF

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Ulcers can generally vary quite widely in severity as well as causes. They can arise from nipping, injurys (such as scrapes), parasites, or from certain bacterial infections, yes. Sometimes the infections are mild, sometimes they can take down fish quickly, and sometimes they can be more chronic (such as via mycobacterium/fish tb). Mild ulcers can sometimes be cured by just doing very large water changes daily, or using aquarium salt, but due to how large that ulcer is in proportion to the size of the fish, I would probably want to treat that with something.

If I'm honest, this is not often a good sign, and these symptoms in combination with the size of the ulcer, I would probably reach for an antibiotic such as Seachem's Kanaplex (kanamycin), or API's Fin & Body Cure (Doxycycline). If it is not possible to get an antibiotic then eSHA's 2000 could be worth a go. I would always advise dosing meds outside of the main tank if treating individual fish (due to the impacts on the biological balance of the tank), but it'll likely not do much harm to use eSHA's 2000 in the main tank, it primarily affects gram positive bacteria. I guess it depends on whether or not you consider the risks vs benefits worth it.

Hope some of this helps.

Thank you and yes it does. I’m not keen on antibiotics in a main tank for sure so the eSHA 2000 is probably where I would go!

I guess if there is a parasitical/infectious cause, that the treatment proves to be effective for, then having treated the other fish would be no bad thing.

With fish it’s always the diagnosis that’s the tricky thing eh!

The only other treatment I have immediately available is eSHA Exit, which can be used in combo with 2000, but seems less appropriate for the symptoms!!

Hospital tank will be ready soon so if it makes it that far I can do something a little more focussed.

🙁
 

xZaiox

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With fish it’s always the diagnosis that’s the tricky thing eh!
Oh for sure, sometimes different illnesses can look similar, and one illness could have multiple different causes, so it easily feels like a guessing game.
Best of luck with treatment, I hope your danio pulls through. 🤞
 

KirstyF

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Sad to say, the little guy didn’t make it past yesterday. 🙁

Ma’s been keeping a close eye but I’ll do some lengthy personal observations when I’m home tomorrow to see if any others appear to be in trouble.

Fingers crossed just a one off result of injury but we’ll see!
 

xZaiox

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Really sorry to hear that @KirstyF 😥
the fish has been hiding and not eating.
My experience with bacterial infections is that the fish will generally keep eating, so if it reaches the point where they are no longer eating and simultaneously have an infection, I tend to think antibiotics may be warranted. When I've seen bacterial infections take down fish, I often find the fish will keep eating until it can only hold on for a little bit longer. I wonder if those signs perhaps indicate a systemic infection, although that's purely speculation on my part.

Do let us know how your other fish appear to be - I wouldn't generally consider ulcers contagious (although as I mentioned above there can be a few exceptions i.e fish tb / parasites), I wouldn't worry about an ulcer appearing in one single fish.
 

KirstyF

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Well, I’ve done some observations today and can’t see any other fish with blemishes, spots, bumps, red gills etc etc No clamped fins, all behaving normally and all eating…..except one!

I have a gold cloud mountain minnow that is mostly sticking to one spot in the tank and not showing much interest in food which is never a good sign. It is also maybe a little pale though again no obvious physical issues or blemishes and not clamping fins etc.

I’ve decided to dose the tank with eSHA 2000 as a precautionary measure though unclear as to whether this will help, and will keep a close eye.

I’ve also tested for ammonia, which was all clear, and re-tested ph, TDS and checked temps; all fell within expected parameters. Did a 50% water change before the treatment and removed the purigen from the filters just in case that might take any of the treatment out.

Not sure there is anything else I can/should do at this juncture. Nothing very obvious to go on!!
 

xZaiox

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I have a gold cloud mountain minnow that is mostly sticking to one spot in the tank and not showing much interest in food which is never a good sign. It is also maybe a little pale though again no obvious physical issues or blemishes and not clamping fins etc.

Have you noticed any white or clear poops on this or any other fish? Does its stomach look caved in or normal?
 

KirstyF

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This is an image of the fish so no I wouldn’t say it’s stomach looks abnormal.
B7EEDC3F-936D-4B5E-AF61-8201B1998710.jpeg

I have fairly good flow in the tank and the fish are usually quite active so I would have to say I’ve never seen any kind of poop of any colour on any of my fish. Not sure if that’s because they have great digestion or because anything that comes out of them gets swept away immediately.

As I have a number of fish that prefer meatier diets, I feed frozen every day, usually cyclops or daphnia for little mouths and I also do a dry feed daily, usually tetra micro granule or a mix that I make up myself that has some tropical granule, some veggie granule, bug bites and flake all mixed together.

Small feeds, all gone within a couple of minutes.

Internal parasites are a possibility I guess? If so, any suggestions for good treatments for that?
 

xZaiox

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Not sure if that’s because they have great digestion or because anything that comes out of them gets swept away immediately.
Try looking specifically for the poop every now and then as it comes out of the fish, it can be quite useful as an indicator for internal parasites. I find my fish tend to poop shortly after eating :lol:
As I have a number of fish that prefer meatier diets, I feed frozen every day, usually cyclops or daphnia for little mouths and I also do a dry feed daily, usually tetra micro granule or a mix that I make up myself that has some tropical granule, some veggie granule, bug bites and flake all mixed together.
Sounds like you're providing good nutrition :thumbup:
Internal parasites are a possibility I guess? If so, any suggestions for good treatments for that?
I wouldn't really advise treating for internal parasites (or any illness) unless the signs are quite clear, you can often end up doing more harm than good by pre-emptively treating fish. I generally suspect internal parasites when I see white/clear poop accompanied by behavioural symptoms such as a lack of appetite and hiding, or members of a shoaling species such as tetras casting out a fish with white poop. In these cases I will usually treat with Metronidazole first (this targets Hexamita). If this doesn't work I would look to either Fenbendazole or Levamisole (for Capillaria). Note that with internal parasites, the medications are best delivered by feeding the medication to the fish through the food.

I think hiding and a lack of appetite as the only symptoms is just too vague to treat for though. It's definitely something to observe and see if anything else can be noticed about the fish.
 

KirstyF

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Well the fragile gold cloud seems a bit more active today and it was picking at some food too so that’s good. Still staying away from the rest of the gang and not back to business as usual for sure, but not getting worse at least. I’ve noticed some egg scattering and a fair bit of chasing going on today. Maybe it’s been bullied and stressed perhaps, though you’d think in a tank this size, it wouldn’t be an issue.

I do tend to keep an eye out for poops, just because they are good indicators, but have literally never seen any. In previous tanks I’ve always seen occasional poops but I’ve fed frozen maybe a couple of times a week at most. With this tank, feeding frozen every day, I wondered whether this just keeps things ‘regular’ and the poops simply don’t hang!! I will continue to look out though, particularly for white or clear.

Might have pulled the switch on the eSHA 2000 a bit too quickly perhaps but I understand that it’s is fairly gentle on the tank and the fish, so should be no harm done. Appreciate for the tips on the other meds though, good to know for future reference.

I’ve been fortunate with previous tanks to have very little in the way of illnesses or losses, so it’s real helpful.

Thanks again! I’ll keep on eye on things and fingers crossed the gold cloud will make a recovery. 😊
 

KirstyF

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Pleased to say that, whatever was going on with the GCMM, all seems well.

Eating, active, improved colour and back socialising. All the other fish appear hale and hearty too. 😊

Whether the treatment was of any benefit, I’m not sure, but certainly no negative impact.

All a bit of a mystery tbf! 🤔
 

KirstyF

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Not good news @xZaiox (and anyone else with any ideas) I’ve had another poorly CPD.

If you Zoom in on the pic below, you can see some small pale patches near the base of the tail and a more noticeable white patch that looks like fungus just where the tail connects with the tail fin. CC1DB884-599D-4D2C-A9C0-EB10C4CD18F1.jpeg

This is an image of the, now deceased, fish where you can see the ‘fungus’ more clearly and note, the tail fin is virtually gone.
14A9C027-AFBF-4740-9EAA-EB0927CEF722.jpeg

These images were taken just 24hrs apart.

Bearing in mind, I’ve already treated with eSHA 2000 for bacterial infection, fungal infections less than 3 weeks ago, should I look at treating the tank again!!?

Again, there are currently no other fish showing signs of issues but this has appeared and taken the affected fish down very very quickly. 🙁
 

xZaiox

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Is the white growth 'fuzzy'? I've never had fungal infections in my fish before so I'm unfortunately not very educated on them, from my understanding they tend to be rarer in fish (a lot of bacterial or sometimes even protozoan infections are misdiagnosed as fungal). They often display 'fuzzy' growth though, as opposed to smooth/flat patches, and are more common in tanks with lots of dissolved organics.

A difficult thing with smaller fish is that because the fish is so small, it can be even more difficult to see what's going on.
Looks like Saprolegnia which will take down a weak/ill fish extremely quickly once it gets hold.
@MirandaB , have you had any experiences and/or any knowledge of how to effectively treat such infections? I'm sure the OP would love to know, and as would I in case I ever come across this in my own fish.
 

MirandaB

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I've only had to deal with Saprolegnia once before,that was in some Medaka I moved outside a bit too early and we had a cold snap.
Out of the 5 fish with it I managed to save all but the worst affected one by putting them in a tank of Methylene Blue solution but you can't use it your main tank as it'll kill off the filter bacteria.
There's not much you can do in the main tank as Sap is naturally resident to some degree in virtually all tanks and @KirstyF is doing all the right things regarding weekly water changes etc anyway.
I'd say there was an underlying issue already with that fish though and the Sap finished it off sadly.
 

KirstyF

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Thanks for the responses @xZaiox @MirandaB.

Yes, the one white patch was fuzzy, and the other 3 tiny pale patches were flat and just looked like faded scales

This is the kind of general malaise that would make me think water quality issue or stress issue. ie something that would not normally be a problem but comes up due to the fish having a weakened immune system or stress caused by something in-tank.

I just don’t have any answers for what that could be.

I’ve not missed a single 50% weekly WC since I’ve had the tank. I do a partial surface hoover each time. (Never the whole tank at once as it would take me all day) Cleaning routines for other items like filters, gyres, spray bars, pipes are all solid. My pre filter sponges (and main filter media when I do them) only ever get cleaned with tank water as it empties, rather than tap, and I only do one main filter clean at a time (again media is only rinsed with tank water) to protect the bacterial colony.

No notable TDS fluctuations

New water is treated with Prime.

Temp for these guys is slap bang in the middle of their range.

PH is fine for them.

GH is at the top of their range but I know folks who have kept and bred CPD’s in harder water.

Food quality is good.

Fish in tank are compatible, no super bully’s though the CPD’s can be a bit scrappy amongst themselves.

Losing two fish in 3 weeks would however indicate an underlying issue somewhere.

I’m reviewing ferts with a view to reducing load so the water report is getting a picking through. ‘I know guys, plenty of heavy fertilised tanks out there with happy fish’ but I’ve more ferts than I need so it won’t do any harm at least.

I’m also going to see if I can confirm my male to female ratio in this community.
1” fish in a 7ft heavily planted aquarium so that should be fun!! but maybe these guys are being harassed to death!!?
 

xZaiox

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This is the kind of general malaise that would make me think water quality issue or stress issue. ie something that would not normally be a problem but comes up due to the fish having a weakened immune system or stress caused by something in-tank.
I would generally tend to agree since you've had 2 fish die from (presumably) different causes within a short space of time, however do note that sometimes unfortunate coincidences can occur. Apparently CPD's lifespans are typically 3-5 years in captivity - is it possible these were just old fish with weakened immune systems?

It's definitely wise to be on the look out for causes when fish die in order to intercept anything contagious and spreading, but it's also easy to 'jump the gun' early and become over-involved and upset the ecological balance of the tank. Since these fish appeared to die from different causes, I personally would just take a 'wait-and-see' approach - keep up the good tank maintenance practices and see if anything else develops. I would maybe keep an eye out for signs of parasites though, a lot of bacterial and/or fungal infections are often opportunistic, and it becomes easier for them to infect fish that are already dealing with parasitic infections. Look for signs like flashing/itching, randomly darting across the tank, fast/laboured breathing, open gill covers, breathing at the top of the tank, white/clear poop, refusal of food or spitting food back out, hiding (this last one is a vague sign but often indicates stress). It can be much more difficult to notice some of these signs in smaller fish unfortunately.

Hope some of this helps.
 

Conort2

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I kept cpd’s in the past and had similar issues. I believe the stock available now is pretty inbred and generally of really poor quality. All other fish I kept with them were fine but I lost cpd’s one by one to stuff like wasting away, crooked spines, ulcers. I have a feeling a lot of them in the trade have fish tb or something similar.

You find the same with dwarf gouramis, neon tetras, guppy’s etc. A lot of the stock these days is of terrible quality.

Cheers
 
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