Confused on KH GH etc and keeping Chocolates

[tam]

Whilst on the topic, I've been wondering - what's the difference between dissolved organic compounds you get naturally in a tank (that are one of the reasons quoted for doing water changes) and the ones you get deliberately from adding things like captappa leaves?

 

[zozo]

what's the difference between dissolved organic compounds you get naturally in a tank

Proteïnes, sugars, (plant waste/secretion) disolving dead plant tissue, fish waste/secretion for short Detritus accumulating on/into the substrate and partialy dissolving into the water column. In nature all this will simply recycle due to natural processes over time, actualy also partialy into beneficial organic compounts. in a tiny closed invironment like an aquarium, we do not have the time and a much to small invironment. We have much more fish and plants per volume producing much more waste and actualy are over stressing the natural process capacity of this invironment. Than it only will accumulate into a toxic/pathogenic level before it can be processed to something usefull. So we must do water changes and cleaning session etc. to get rid of it.

But take for example Peat is such a very old natural processed substance made from these very same organic waste compounds that never got cleaned out and accumulated into very thick levels. And under the proper circumstances nature is able to process this dead organic material into something usefull again but it takes an awfull long time. And now after al that time it turned into peat we can use it again to add the important organic compounts which are in it to our aquarium to benefit plant and fish health.

So bottom line, the basic compounts are initialy the same source, the difference is it needs special circumstances several processing stages and an awfull long time to turn back into something beneficial. In an aqaurium we don't have the processing capacities nor the time.. So we should take the nasty organic waste out and add the beneficial substances from materials which once were waste too, but nature already processed it for us long time ago.

 

[tam]

Thanks, that makes sense, and I presume the tree leaves are ok because the not so good stuff is reabsorbed by the tree before dropping the old leaves in autumn?

 

[zozo]

Thanks, that makes sense, and I presume the tree leaves are ok because the not so good stuff is reabsorbed by the tree before dropping the old leaves in autumn?

Yes correct.. This also something i learned here at ukaps (from Darrel) some time ago.. Maybe a bit overdone chances are slimm , but still because of this i only pick dead leaves that still are on the tree. Never pick 'm off the ground or from broken off branches.. Since i can't know at what stage it fell off.. If it ever fell or got ripped off in a green stage it probably still contains stuff i don't want. So picking them off the tree feels a lot safer to me..

 

[tam]

Yes correct.. This also something i learned here at ukaps (from Darrel) some time ago.. Maybe a bit overdone chances are slimm , but still because of this i only pick dead leaves that still are on the tree. Never pick 'm off the ground or from broken off branches.. Since i can't know at what stage it fell off.. If it ever fell or got ripped off in a green stage it probably still contains stuff i don't want. So picking them off the tree feels a lot safer to me..

Generally, if they come off green they will go black-brown as they rot or keep the greenish hue if they dry, only the autumn already dead leaves achieve that nice thin crisp texture and light brown colour - I used to collect a lot of green leaves to dry for winter forage for my pet rabbit where you want to opposite to aquarium leaves. I think avoiding fallen branches is sensible - like you say you don't know at what point they came down and they'll react differently - like a cut flower so might reabsorb or not.

 

[sciencefiction]

As an aside dKH tests don't actually measure carbonate hardness, they measure all the bases.

Yes, I am aware of that. That's why I am using the term KH as that's what we measure for. And a reading of KH in my opinion is what one needs as a starting point to keep things good for the fish. A reading of 1 or 2 is plenty enough and should never go down providing tank is not overstocked and is regularly water changed. Heavy nitrification and pollution moves that measure down in most cases and when it happens, things go bad for the fish. Problem is when one is trying to keep black water fish, one might get excited when their Kh is lower than initial, thinking water is getting softer, when in fact its gone very acidic, polluted, and bad for the fish. One can reproduce down-spiralling KH by just not doing water changes, overfeeding and overstocking.....The drop in Ph will come too and if looked from the wrong perspective, one would think they've magically got the best conditions for soft water fish

 

[sciencefiction]

Yes correct.. This also something i learned here at ukaps (from Darrel) some time ago.. Maybe a bit overdone chances are slimm , but still because of this i only pick dead leaves that still are on the tree. Never pick 'm off the ground or from broken off branches.. Since i can't know at what stage it fell off.. If it ever fell or got ripped off in a green stage it probably still contains stuff i don't want. So picking them off the tree feels a lot safer to me..

Generally, if they come off green they will go black-brown as they rot or keep the greenish hue if they dry, only the autumn already dead leaves achieve that nice thin crisp texture and light brown colour - I used to collect a lot of green leaves to dry for winter forage for my pet rabbit where you want to opposite to aquarium leaves. I think avoiding fallen branches is sensible - like you say you don't know at what point they came down and they'll react differently - like a cut flower so might reabsorb or not.

He, he. Good to know. I always pick mine from the ground, can't reach the tree But I'll watch out next time. I microwave my leaves, not sure that's a good idea as they come out rather crispy

 

[sciencefiction]

The humic compounds are definitely important, you can get an estimate based on tint of the water. The darker the tint is, the more DOC is present. As an aside dKH tests don't actually measure carbonate hardness, they measure all the bases.

I experimented with Rooibos/Redbush tea in my tanks several times. It does move my KH down by a point or two. Of course, not enough in my hard water to affect the Ph reading. However, I stopped because I noticed my platys stress out each time from the drop, I drink a lot of that tea and I added tea bags to the tanks numerous times, when I just felt like it..... each time with consequences to the platy fish. A couple would get tiny white fuzzy spots, fungus like within a week. I totally don't know why they're the only creatures affected or at least the only ones to visually show stress induced disease. The fuzzy spots would clear if I do a complete water change and raise the temperature, definitely a sign of fungus like issue as true fungus gets killed by higher temperature. Perhaps I drink fungus loaded Rooibos tea bags as I can't explain it otherwise. Or perhaps the hard water loving platys don't like lower Kh. Either way, I've stopped. I only have 4 female platys left which refuse to die

To add to my previous post, that's why I now microwave whatever goes into the tank, such as leaves, that may have stayed on the ground at some point....I drink my tea boiled too

 

[tam]

I microwave my leaves, not sure that's a good idea as they come out rather crispy

I've not tried it, but just watch them carefully whilst you do it - they might be a bit of a fire risk!

 

[sciencefiction]

I've not tried it, but just watch them carefully whilst you do it - they might be a bit of a fire risk!

Its a good point. I do...I only put them in for 30 secs to a minute..It also just crossed my mind if I should try "boiled" bags of rooibos tea instead of just dumping them in a tank.

 

[zozo]

He, he. Good to know. I always pick mine from the ground, can't reach the tree But I'll watch out next time.

I fortunately have a nice place loaded with young small Oak, Beech and Alder trees standing side by side all togehter 5 minutes walk from my place. It's a dead leaf and alder cone supermarket.. Also have the comfort to pick the smalles leaves from the smallest trees i can find, this scalles and contrasts beter with the rest of the tank. The large leaves especialy the big catapa just look awfully out of place in a relative smal aquarium. Probably the thought would never crossed my mind without this luxury..