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Celestial danios - one dead,and one looks unwell, please help.

sciencefiction said:
Did you administer both treatments together? Too hard on sick fish..
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Hi,

de wormer was thursday, and states 4 days until it has completely decayed, so I assumed starting antibiotics of saturday would be ok.

I did a quick search on combining, and saw a few things suggesting that it was ok to do at the same time, so I thought with a 48 hr offset it would be fine...

Do you think this is wrong?

Thanks
 
Abcdefg said:
Do you think this is wrong?
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Its hard to judge but i would have done a second dose 4 days kusuri to cover also hex parasite. Then wait for a couple of weeks. What is the Esha for? Does it treat internal bacterial infections because majority antibacterial meds dont...If it doesnt.. its only an addional stressor...meds can make things worse when one is panicking and overdoing it.
 
sciencefiction said:
Its hard to judge but i would have done a second dose 4 days kusuri to cover also hex parasite. Then wait for a couple of weeks. What is the Esha for? Does it treat internal bacterial infections because majority antibacterial meds dont...If it doesnt.. its only an addional stressor...meds can make things worse when one is panicking and overdoing it.
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I could do a second dose of kusuri, but I have shrimps in there as well so was hesitant to do this, is it safe?

Esha 2000 doesn't appear to be internal.

would you recommend trying an internal antibacterial? if so which product should I try?

Thanks
 
Kusuri can harm inverts....

But to cover hex one must do the treatment twice.

The only meds that treat internal baccterial infections are either certain antibiotics which one cant purchase for fish use in the UK... or substitute meds such as interpret n9 but this one is not a joke...it will wipe inverts and the filter bacs. There could be others similar here but they are pretty much the same... a toxic coctail..

However...as I mentioned previosly..i would not bother with antibacterial at this stage. If by some unlucky chance this is TB...no antibacterial can help so what exactly would one need to use antibacs meds for? ..Chances are little this has much to do with bacteria...and if it is...its most likely enviromental as most bacterial diseases with a few exceptions, are environmental. These are not normally contagious.. you would have one skinny fish...not 4_5
 
For internal bacterial infections the med I have used and which is safe for inverts is seachem kanaplex but you can only buy it from ebay. It deals with various contagious bacterial diseases. I lately used it for columnaris. It is absorbed by the fishes skin so it will be effective internally...e.g. in the gut and organs. It is a strong antibiotic but pretty safe to use if one follows the instructions
 
Abcdefg said:
can I be fairly sure that if it continues it is bacteriological.
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No. You cant be sure. There is possibility of parasites that kusuri cant treat for or tapeworms for which you need fluke solve(prazi). You need to give it time after treatments.. dedicating time to big water changes and quality food..Very sick fish may die anyway...or take months to fill out to normal shape again.. providing one got lucky and treated with the right med in the first place...It is very frustrating to deal with sick fish and it has taken me months sometimes to figure it out...One cant expect miracles..Dumping med after med with no decent time apart and no adequate maintenance will not help and can be detrimental. You need to have a plan and patience and not panick if fish keep dying.
 
Abcdefg said:
Unfortunately this one didn't make it, I found it dead on Saturday, and it had been that way long enough to grow a fine fuzz of long strands, I'm not sure whether the others may have fed on it before I found it. As it was hidden away under some hair grass, I did t spot it immediately
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In an aquarium environment this can occur within a few hours - especially in an already weakened/wasting/chronic disease fish (likely the first pathogens were already established before death)

Fish have a complex host (as in massive army ;)) of potential pathogens - if you do a necropsy, dozens of pathogens will be listed as "possible disease agents", you're very unlikely to receive a "likely cause of death" statement for any single pathogen (even when iridoviruses & fish TB pathogens are detected) - once fish become significantly ill, it's a pathogen "free for all" state & the picture gets murky, fast.



Abcdefg said:
The one thing that I was wondering about is feeding.

I have been feeding jbl plankton pur and some tetra granules (I've forgotten which). However whilst feeding this morning I noticed that the general consensus from the danios is that they like to 'approach-food-and-be-next-to-it' rather than eat the stuff, I don't know whether this is because they where fed last night as well.
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Healthy fish are rarely too "full" to eat
It's a "typical" symptom for fish with internal parasites (of various sorts) to experience an initial food response (that excited mad - or not so mad, depending on species - dash) then appear too "full to eat" , unfortunately this symptom can also be observed (though slightly differently) in fish suffering mildly from other diseases.
A fish with zero food response is well past the "mildly ill" stage

Internal parasites are most effectively treated with medicated food - at this stage, you want to focus on water treatments in order to get fish doing well enough to accept medicated food (which of course is less palatable than non-medicated foods).
(of course almost any fish pathogen is most effectively treated with medicated food ;) )

Daily water changes of ~25% are always recommended with ill fish in order to improve/optimize water quality
Same daily water changes is also recommended whenever treating fish/aquaria
(University of Florida Veterinary has a very decent set of articles on their open access learning site - some are more specific to aquafaming, many are also directed/applicable for aquaria - quarantine, common diseases & treatment, how to treat, minimizing stress, etc etc)

At this stage, I'd discontinue the antibacterial - consecutive water changes, 25- 50% depending on what you do normally (which rather depends on how well you're able to match tank vs tap parameters), followed by some carbon overnight to remove remaining chemicals.
Daily water change, then treat with the Kusuri - if you can list the ingredients & directions that would be helpful (in view of my comments)

From what I know of the antibacterial Tx - unless the ingredients have changed dramatically - I'd expect it do virtually nothing but add to fish stress in this situation
(and that's the catch 22 of medicating - pretty much every chemical on the market (& those that are script only) trigger a stress response in fish (regardless of manufacture claims to the contrary)).
 
Abcdefg said:
If I have to tear it down and disinfect it it's going to be sad and pricey (plants etc).
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Don't worry or stress unduly...whatever the disease usually it's just the fish with a compromised immune system that succumb, so there is no need to strip and disinfect.
We've all been there, many of us with celestials, and it can be very disheartening - but sometimes all you can do is let the disease run its course.
Stick with it I'm sure it'll come good eventually.
 
Listen to Tim :D
- there's nothing to indicate your fish have TB (or any other DIRE disease)
 
I found a third dead danio this morning, not much of a surprise given how it looked last night...

Tim Harrison said:
Don't worry or stress unduly...whatever the disease usually it's just the fish with a compromised immune system that succumb, so there is no need to strip and disinfect.
We've all been there, many of us with celestials, and it can be very disheartening - but sometimes all you can do is let the disease run its course.
Stick with it I'm sure it'll come good eventually.
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Thanks Tim,

with this in mind I'm erring on the side of doing this:
alto said:
Daily water changes of ~25%
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seeing how that goes, and then possibly doing another course of the wormer, and or esha EXIT which seems to be anti parasite (unless anybody has any other medication recommendations?) I would be medicating based only on treatments I can find that are shrimp safe.


The thinking behind this path is based of what I think this overall thread is suggesting:

Mycobacteria: if it's this then the fish are all 'doomed' anyway to a large extent as its untreatable, the CPDs are the only fish in the tank in any case so why remove just one or two that look ill (is this right?)

if it's anything else eg parasites: then the whole tank needs treating anyway.


One thing that is on my mind a bit though is bullying, specifically under-feeding and bullying, and that perhaps I may have created a monster:

I think I have possibly been underfeeding, or feeding foods that the PCDs cant make much effective use of, as they don't remain in suspension. and at feeding times (and probably other times) there seems to be a bully who's mindset is mainly this:

"I really need to bully everyone to make sure that they are too busy running away to feed"

"this is hard work, I'm so busy bullying everyone else that I don't have time to feed myself... oh well, needs must, ... on with the bullying"

I think that the 5 remaining CPDs that do look active do all manage to eat bits and pieces, but it's all a bit fraught and agressive

Is it worth trying to extract this nitwit,and putting it in a small breeder box that sits in the tank? or (if I can't find a breeder box that's suitable this lunch time) seeing how he/she likes life in a bucket with only a few drops of prime, some moss and an airstone for company for a week or so?

Thanks again
 
Abcdefg said:
seeing how that goes, and then possibly doing another course of the wormer, and or esha EXIT which seems to be anti parasite (unless anybody has any other medication recommendations?) I would be medicating based only on treatments I can find that are shrimp safe
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Seeing no one has responded...Esha exit is mainly an external parasite treament. It says it also treats tapeworms amongst other external parasites but the ones it claims to treat such as flukes(also a type of tapeworm but external..not in the organs of the fish) ...Those meds will not go into the organs or gut of the fish what normally causes the wasting..You'd see the damage visually on the fish from any external pathogens, be it bacterial or parasitic...Fish tend to flash and scrape themselves off objects too when that's the issue...though not a guarantee..Fish TB(again not always) but it tends to manifest itself externally too in the form of infected wounds and raised nodules.... Esha Exit is totally uncalled for in your scenario....without a microscopic diagnosis... It will also affect your biofilter and kill inverts...there's copper in it.....
There is plenty of advise on treatment here...There's no magic when it comes to treating fish..There's no one med treats all. Its as complicated as treating humans.....Its a steep learning curve and a very stressful one...Whatever you decide to do...or treat for...it needs to be a med that is capable of reaching the fish internally, whether bacterial, protozoan or worming med.
 
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MadMike said:
How are things going?

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk
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Hi All,

Sorry, been very busy so haven't been on here much.

As things stand there are 5 CPDs left, most seem very active (breeding and producing fry, although the fry do not survive). One is exibiting the same closely held fins behaviour, but hasn't died yet.

Does anyone have any experience with fry? whether I can do anything for them (food etc?) and whether they survive much?

Many thanks!
 
Abcdefg said:
Hi All,

Sorry, been very busy so haven't been on here much.

As things stand there are 5 CPDs left, most seem very active (breeding and producing fry, although the fry do not survive). One is exibiting the same closely held fins behaviour, but hasn't died yet.

Does anyone have any experience with fry? whether I can do anything for them (food etc?) and whether they survive much?

Many thanks!
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That's good news, sounds as though things are settling down in your tank.

As for fry, I have a net breeding box I hang on the side of my tank. I just feed really finely crushed flake food. Livebearers mind, I've heard that you can buy fry food.

EDIT: Just to add, some java moss can help no end. I've had a couple survive just foraging and living in that.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk
 
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