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Can an external canister filter be run with a separate pump? :-)

Zak Rafik

Zak Rafik

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2014
Messages
466
Location
Singapore
Hi guys,:)
Need your advice / input for my planted tank.

I have read many posts here where having the spray bar length wise, especially for big tanks (pointing back to front of tank) creates:
1. Better flow in the tank
2. More efficient distribution of nutrients to plants.
3. More efficient distribution of Co2
4. Less Co2 need to get the DC to the lime green colour.
5. The tank doesn't end up looking like a washing machine in spin cycle.

I maybe wrong but I think I may be having flow problems in my tank. All my stem plants are getting leggy and the stems are thin.

I have searched all over the net ( just kidding) and spoken to a few LFS and they all sing in unison: MORE LIGHTS! MORE LIGHTS! MORE LIGHTS! YOU NEED MORE LIGHTS!:banghead:
(Is this what Clive a.k.a.ceg4048 fondly refers to as THE MATRIX?);)

But only here in UKAPS, do the gurus/experts say : FLOW! DISTRIBUTION! :bookworm:

Just for laughs: a LFS today advised me: "You need more potassium! The best product is ADA's Brighty K only!" :lol:

Anyway, my carpet and midground plants which are doing OK (not great either) but background plants are leggy with thin stems (please see photo taken).
Inspite of using the powerhead for better flow, background plants don't have that gentle back and forth movement. Only the middle plants are moving about madly.

I'm planning to run my 2 canister filters with 2 separate spray bars placed lengthwise on the back of the tank .
I intend to attach an Eheim Universal pump 2400 (stated flow 2400L/h) to the Eheim 600 (2075) BUT with the impeller taken out of the ext canister.
Please see the diagram I drew below.

OK now the big question is:
Is this possible? Can the canister 600 still function without the impeller inside it and with a separate pump doing all the pulling and pushing of water.
As I intend to have the pump outside the tank along with my other 2 canister filters in my cabinet, will the Eheim pump generate too much heat and vibration noise?
If I have too much flow, can it be slowed down using a flow controller tap?
Which is the best position to have the Eheim pump in the flow path?

Below are my tank's details.
4 feet / 120cm
Age of tank: 8 months
Actual volume: 290 litres / 76 US gallon
Mid to heavy planted.
EI fertilization(3x a week).
With additional 1 teaspoon of potassium phosphate (3x a week) for the past 2 months.
Substrate: ADA Aqua soil.
Water change: 50% once a week.
Using chiller ( temp @ 25 c).
No liquid carbon dosed.

Photoperiod.
Total: 6 hours.
50% intensity for 3 hours from lights on and then the remaining 3 hours with 100% intensity.

Pressurized Co2
1. Two separate Co2 diffusers-
a. Inline diffuser (Intense brand).
b. Intank diffuser (70mm - Intense brand).

2. Co2 switched ON 3 hours before lights ON
3. DC near to lime green when lights on.
4. Using 5 litre cylinder in 30 to 35 days! (crazy right?)
5. Co2 BBS : uncountable / crazy / mind boggling etc etc....

Algae:
1.GSA : on front glass (not severe).
2.BBA : on the rise.
3.Hair algae: NIL.
4.BGA : very small patches near substrate level but 70 - 80% gone.
6.Using Easy Life's Algae Exit for the past 3 weeks for BBA but no improvement at all. IMO this product is snake oil.

Fish: moderate population but all healthy and happy.

Filtration:
Eheim Ext canister 1200XL (2080).
Stated flow: 1700L/h but actual flow maybe about 60% only. Inline Co2 diffuser attached.

Eheim Ext canister 600 (2075).
Stated flow: 1250L/h but actual flow is maybe about 40% only as chiller is attached and flow is slowed down quite significantly..

Powerhead : Turbelle nanostream 6045. (stated flow rate: 1500L/h which I severely doubt.)
Currently all spray bars and powerhead pointing horizontally to the other side of the tank (left to right).

Prefered turnover rate in tank: 10X volume (290Lt X 10= 2900)
Estimated flow (can be lower, maybe?)
Eheim 2080: 1000L/h
Eheim 2075: 500L/h
Powerhead: stated 1500L/h ( but as mentioned above, I doubt it).

Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post and for your effort in providing me your experiences and inputs. Much appreciated.

Cheers


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Eheim-filter-position_zpscc810531.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/leggy-plants_zpsdfb725f9.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/maxresdefault_zps77f64ade.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/8396953793_920569535d_c_zpsa1623c7c.jpg
 
1. The pump in a canister filer is usually in the output so it pumps clean(er) water, generally pulls through a larger opening ie 50mm than it pushes out eg 16mm piping
2. The 1260 is 28mm inlet 18mm out (notice the bigger inlet than outlet) and 2075 is 16mm piping, that is 3rd reduction is cross section, the pump will not be happy having its inlet massively restricted, possibly cavitating and seriously reducing the impellor life (and noisy).
3. The 2075 is designed for 500l/hr pushing (actually pulling) more water through is probably not good, may be noisy, wont filter very well and probably collapse and filter foams in it.
4. Addition of a chiller reducing flow even further won't help either.
5. Another 2080 (or bigger) would be the proper way to do it without any issues. (JBL e1501 at 1500l/hr ?)

You could just it and see, but you will require some interesting pipe sizes and "flow reducing" pipe reducers to connect it all together...

Other options, do without the 500l filter just have a pumped chiller loop (and CO2 ????).
 
ian_m said:
The 1260 is 28mm inlet 18mm out (notice the bigger inlet than outlet) and 2075 is 16mm piping, that is 3rd reduction is cross section, the pump will not be happy having its inlet massively restricted, possibly cavitating and seriously reducing the impellor life (and noisy).
Click to expand...
OK, I must have missed out that part when I looked at the 1260 pump. Thanks.

Or the other option might be to run the 2075 with no media/ filter floss in all 4 trays. Now it has only coarse sponge at the bottom 1st and 2nd trays, fine filter floss in 3rd tray and a bag of Purigen in the 4th tray.

Anyway do you think the leggy stem plants are due to not enough flow?
Cheers
 
If I'm able to find a pump of other brands and the hose pipe size is the same as the Eheim 16/22 hose, is it still possible to run the canister with the impeller taken out?

The Eheim pump costs $185 and a new Eheim filter 2080 costs $595.
 
ceg4048 said:
Yes, you can take the impeller out and run an external pump. The plastic bucket does not care
Click to expand...
Hi
The Eheim 2075's manufacturer's stated flow is 1250 Litres / hour. The main drawback in my setup is the chiller which is severely slowing down the flow. In your opinion what's the maximum pump flow can I attach to the 2075 without causing the filter foams to collapse as stated by ian_m (post no #2).
 
Zak Rafik said:
In your opinion what's the maximum pump flow can I attach to the 2075 without causing the filter foams to collapse as stated by ian_m (post no #2).
Click to expand...
It would be 500l/hr as the manufacture designed. To get more flow successfully through it needs to be bigger, there is a certain range of values of flow per unit cross sectional area that filters are built for. Any less than this, the manufacturer could make filter smaller any higher than this you pull the dirt through the foam.

You will just have to try it and see.

Juwel offer various sized pump heads for their internal filters, 400l/hr, 600l/hr & 1000l/hr. The problem with the bigger flow ones is foam starts blocking and collapsing under the suction, especially using the older Juwel proprietary foams, and starts damaging the pump head impellor (the shaft wears). However I now have a 600l/hr with non Juwel foams, that don't appear to collapse so easily, and the latest pump head with ceramic shaft and not suffered any of the issues I suffered from years ago.
 
OK here is the update. Hopefully the changes done to my tank will bring about some awesome positive changes.:angelic:

I tried to find an external pump but was not able to find a good quality one with 16/22 hose size. So I decided to bite the bullet and got myself another Eheim 1200XL (2080).
As for the older Eheim 2075, I have brainwashed a friend of mine to take it at a good price.:shh:

So now, I have hooked up the new 2080 to the chiller. As the chiller will slow down the flow no matter how strong the filter's pump is, I've shortened the spray bar to compensate for the loose in flow.
The original Eheim spray bar set comes with only 3 separate bars. I had an Eheim gravel cleaner which had the same connection size ( saved some $$:greedy:). I simply drilled some holes as per the layout in the original spray bar.

As there are now 2 massive canister filters, I split the filter media for the filters so as not to slow the flow further.
The bottom tray has coarse sponge, the second tray has fine filter floss and the top tray has some Biohome sintered glass media and 200 grams of Purigen in each 2080.:)

I also found something interesting while cleaning the old Eheim 2080. I found out that the flow indicator inside the 2080 was actually blocking or slowing down the flow of water quite a bit. Please see the photo below to get a better picture.:thumbup:

My immediate observations.
1.
The water flow from the spray bars were not as good as what I saw in ceg4048 / Clive's tank ( see post # 1). I don't know if making the holes in the spray bar bigger will strengthen or weaken the flow. I'm kind of confused on this matter.:confused:
But I do notice there was no washing machine style flow in the tank which I got with a power head. Now ALL the plants are now gently swaying about which is a good indicator.......I suppose.

2.
The fish and shrimps are swimming in all corners of the tank. They are more spread out now.
Previously with the powerhead at full blast, the fish would either be at the bottom with the plants or in corners where there is less flow. Feeding the fish was a tedious task then.
The food flakes would be all over the tank.

3.
During the past few days, the plants at the lower level are growing at a fast rate. I'll update on this as and when there is progress.
After more than 3 months, my Staurogyne Repens are growing new shoots and side roots. :happy:
My Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides' is actually growing. Previously whenever I replanted a stem cutting, within 4 to 5 days all the leaves would melt away with only the top remaining.
Often the whole stem would melt and float in the tank. Now not a single leaf has come out and the best part is that its producing side roots.

4.
Now the main issue. Co2 distribution.
At first there was An In-tank diffuser near to the bottom of the tank and an inline diffuser attached to the old Eheim 2080. But with this setup I noticed that Co2 microbubbles from the inline diffuser was spread more evenly due to the spray bar's length. There was uneven spread of Co2 bubbles from the in-tank diffuser.
Therefore I hooked up my spare inline diffuser to the new Eheim 2080. Now the microbubbles are spread evenly throughout the tank. Thanks to ceg4048 / Clive's idea.

5.
One huge advantage (at least for me) was that I can actually use the microbubbles from the inline diffuser to see / make out the actual flow from the spray bars.
The bubbles would shoot from the spray bar towards the front of the tank and then go downwards towards the substrate and travel along the floor and make the journey upwards at the back of the tank. As the flow has to travel a short distance, any hard scapes or woods would not halt the microbubbles in its path. Previously, the layout of the rocks and woods would determine the flow path as the flow had to travel a longer path ( from left to right side) and thereby lose much momentum and be weakened by the time it reaches the other end of the tank.

6.
The only problem I face now is that as I'm using 2 inline diffusers, even a slight turn of the knob, injects too much Co2. Yesterday I managed to save my whole collection of fish in the tank in the nick of time.
All the fish were gasping for air after 4 hours after Co2 was switched on ( which is a 1st time ever since the tank was set up 8 months ago)
Now I'm turning up the gas upwards 1 or 2 bubbles a day and observing the fish.
I notice I need to spend less Co2 bubbles now. Before this, the bubble count was crazy and yet have many of my plants melting away.

7.
The only plant that is not indicating any positive change is Ludwigia palustris.Maybe I should give it some time.:doctor:

I'm apologize for this lengthy post. I would very much appreciate if the fellow members can give me more pointers on any improvements I can make to the setup. Thanks in advance.
I'll keep this post updated after a few days.
Cheers.

P.S: I got many ideas and inspirations from : ceg4048-Clive / ian_m / parotet / foxfish / Tom Barr / Martin in China. Thank you guys:)


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/2-Eheims-2080-added-JPG_zps8fea5946.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Eheims-2080-added-to-chiller-JPG_zpsd2205620.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Eheims-2080-direct-to-tank-JPG_zps855c3a24.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/2-Eheims-2080-with-spray-bar-jpg_zps7cca925b.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...low-indicater-dismanteled-jpg_zpsce42c2ff.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...-flow-indicater-taken-out-jpg_zps6d63f790.jpg
 
Zak Rafik said:
The only problem I face now is that as I'm using 2 inline diffusers, even a slight turn of the knob, injects too much Co2. Yesterday I managed to save my whole collection of fish in the tank in the nick of time.
All the fish were gasping for air after 4 hours after Co2 was switched on ( which is a 1st time ever since the tank was set up 8 months ago)
Now I'm turning up the gas upwards 1 or 2 bubbles a day and observing the fish.
I notice I need to spend less Co2 bubbles now. Before this, the bubble count was crazy and yet have many of my plants melting away.
Click to expand...
You will have completely uncontrollable CO2 if you are running two diffusers from one needle valve, as you have found. The CO2 will take the route of least resistance and basically vent only via one diffuser in completely uncontrollable rates. Each diffuser must have its own needle valve as in my picture below...

BigTank2_zps6282955e.jpg
 
ian_m said:
You will have completely uncontrollable CO2 if you are running two diffusers from one needle valve, as you have found. The CO2 will take the route of least resistance and basically vent only via one diffuser in completely uncontrollable rates. Each diffuser must have its own needle valve as in my picture below...

BigTank2_zps6282955e.jpg
Click to expand...
Looking at pics there are 2 needle valves 2 bubble counters not sure which order there in though. Does sound like better needle valves are needed or maybe OP could maybe get away with one diffuser.
The best way is 2 regulators. you can buy splitters to fit both onto one cylinders but it will need to be secured.
 
A fish shop near me feeds CO2 to loads of tanks from a single 45Kg FE located outside. Regulator on FE feeds a single pipe (copper outside, plastic inside) which then goes round the tanks with a T splitter at each tank leading to a needle valve, one way valve and bubble counter located on the side of the tank. They have good control at each tank with no interference between tanks. Some tanks are marine with CO2 controllers.
 
Hi guys,
ian_m said:
Each diffuser must have its own needle valve as in my picture below...
Click to expand...
Actually that's how it is set up. Maybe the photo's angel did not show this clearly. I have another photo. Please see below.
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Co2-split_zpse090000c.jpg

Also as mention about Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides', below are the photos taken when I had major Co2 and flow problem in tank during Nov 2014. Most of my plant were simply melting away.
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...-aromatica-hippuroides-melted_zps564ed1fc.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...aromatica-hippuroides-healthy_zps251ed112.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Plantedtankon20Feb2015_zps8ed7ff76.jpg

The only problem I'm having now is getting the DC to be lime green before lights on. I have tried for the past few days to increase the bubble count very lightly so to find the sweet spot for Co2.

But I find the DC to be lime green only after 3 hours after lights on and remains lime green for 2 to 3 hours after lights off. Can someone comment on this?

About 10 days ago my LED light's LEDs staret to dimm very badly. I have returned them to the LFS and he gave me a T5 on loan until the LED is repaired.

The specs of the light set is as below:
4 pcs of T5s at 54 watts each 12000K

But I'm running only 2 T5s. That means 108 watts for 120 cm/4 feet (76 gallons) tank for 6 hours. Is this enough light?

I find running T5s more easier than LEDs. LEDs have to tweaked for intensity and colour, whereas T5s are more straight forward.:)
 
I don't know what's happening.
Inspite of improving flow with 2 Eheim 2080, since yesterday my tank is having BBA very very badly. I have not seen BBA this bad and grow so quickly in my tank since it was set up.
I have upped the Co2 bubble count like before ( uncountable ) and yet DC stay blue green or dark green.
I'm lost on what to do next.

Do I need to add GH boosters to help Co2?
I already have 1 kg of coral chips in the canister for the past 8+ months
 
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