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Best way to cycle a second filter

AndyMcD

AndyMcD

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7 Mar 2015
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Location
South Manchester
I'm in the process of upgrading from a 70 to a 140 litre aquarium.

My existing aquarium has an Eheim external filter providing 700L/hr.

Thanks to subscribing to PFK, I've got a JBL filter, which will provide another 700L/hr, which is currently still in the box.

The new tank has new ADA soil, which will be providing the ammonia. I'm planning on cycling the tank and filter for three weeks, in the dark, without plants, doing a 70% water change once a week.

My question is, should I use the mature, cycled filter to help the cycling process in the new filter? If so, what's the best way of doing this?

Should I transfer some of the media from the Eheim into the JBL filter?

Should I do a water change from the old tank and put some of this water into the new?

Should I add some of the gravel from the old tank, to transfer some of the bacteria from the substrate (unfortunately there is no soil).

My main concern is that I've had algae issues in my old tank. If I transfer too much from the old, do I risk infecting the new tank.

Would I be better to not transfer anything and let nature take its course.
 
If you're planning on running both filters on the new tank straight away, I would just get the substrate in,plant it up and get it growing.
4-5 hours lighting ,crank up the co2?,daily water changes.
Or are you running 2 tanks in the short term? If so,are there many critters in the 70L?
In this scenario, I'd be tempted to swap over 1\3 of the Eheim media over to the Jbl and get the new tank running as above.
Maybe consider extra water changes on the 70L,depending on how many critters are in there, and how heavily planted it is.
As an example,I've just started up a 70L with Amazonia and a new filter doing method 1.
4 weeks in and no algae. IMO it's good technique to do lots of frequent wc's on a new scape.
 
I think you would find that running a new filter on a newly planted tank for a month or two would be more than a sufficient way to cycle the tank.
 
I'm planning to run both tanks in parallel, to save time on doing water changes on the new (this seems to be the way TGM have done their tanks recently). I won't plant until it has cycled for three weeks.

After the three weeks, I'll plant up, put both filters onto the new tank and move the fish into their new home.

Once planted, I'll perhaps do a couple of water changes a week, for a few weeks.

I've about 40cm of fish in the 70L tank.

Your suggestion to move about a third of the media sounds good. It's enough to give the new a good head start. I guess with the old it will refresh some of the media, which may not be a bad thing once it has had chance to recover.
 
Sorry, just thought, this is a daft question!

Once I move the old filter to the new tank, there is no way I can prevent any issues being brought across from the old tank to the new (e.g. Algae spores).

However, I think transferring a third of the media sounds a good way to get the cycling well underway.

BruceF, thanks for your comment. It was just how best to set up a second empty tank in parallel, in the short term. I agree with your comment, once the new tank is planted up and running properly it will cycle well.
 
No problem Andy but I don't really understand why you would want to share the algae problem .
I don't have access to any ADA products so I have no idea how they work.

I never cycle new tanks in the traditional sense. I just plant them and once the plants are well established I add fish. (Well I don't always add fish!)
 
You can plant from day one in a non cycled tank, this will only help with cycling and algae (help, not eradicate). Low light for about 5 hours the first 2 weeks and than slowly ad more hours of light, Big water changes (50%) every day the first week, 3 WC (50%) the second week, 2 WC (50%) the third week, after that you should be good to go with just once WC per week (50%).
Test after 2-3 weeks for Nitrite, if it's at 0ppm you can go ahead and throw in some fish (otos and amano shrimp would be my first choice).
 
BruceF said:
No problem Andy but I don't really understand why you would want to share the algae problem .
I don't have access to any ADA products so I have no idea how they work.
Click to expand...

BruceF, I've have a BBA problem in my old tank. I'd like to keep it in my old tank and I was trying to think if I could stop passing the spores to the new.

I also want to minimise the water changes in the first few weeks.

In the UK, there is a shop called The Green Machine (thegreenmachineonline.com). They sell ADA products. They've done some amazing display tanks and have videos on YouTube showing step by step how they have set them up.

For their last few big displays, they've completed the hardscape and soil / substrate, flooded the tank then waited a few weeks to allow the tank to cycle and the initial peak of ammonia released by the ADA soil to reduce. With the lights off, this means that you only need to complete a really big water change (70%) once a week. Once the cycling process is complete, you can plant up and although you have to still do more frequent water changes (twice a week), it's not as many as you'd have to have done if you planted day one.

I was wondering how I could speed up the cycling process in the new tank. As Stu has suggested moving a third of the filter media will mean that day one there will be a good population of the nitrifying bacteria, which should spread to the rest of the media in the next few weeks.

The aquarium water in the old tank could possibly help the cycling process. For example, I've read that if you want to replace filters in one tank, it's good to run both together for a few weeks. Also, I'm sure I have read that other helpful organisms build up over time. We're advised not to perform greater than 50% water changes as it can disrupt the tank.

I was thinking that I could transfer some of the water from the old tank to the new. Perhaps this could help the new tank to cycle. However, I'd rather not do this if I'm going to transfer lots of BBA spores to the new.

However, my plan is to move the filter on the old tank to the new, once I plant up. I realised after starting this thread that once I do this, I'll move across some of all the good and bad guys from the old tank to the new anyway.
 
For a big tank (as the ones from TGM) it make sense to cycle the tank without plant first, but I wouldn't have the patience for that ;)
You aren't going to use plants from your previous setup? or even fish?....no matter what you do, you will get algae spores in your new tank, best to look why you have a BBA problem first otherwise you have a big chance of getting issues again.
 
Martin, you are right. I'd like to bring both plants and fish forward (to save cost). Fundamentally, I don't think my previous set up was good enough to take care of plants properly, which is why I've had BBA.

Even if I don't bring forward fish and plants, I suspect there will be BBA spores in the old filter media.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
just set up the second filter in a bucket and add some ammonia to get it going. Use new filter media if you are worried about spores etc. Quarantine fish for 2-3 months and move them around various quarantine tanks to minimise any transfer any previous 'stuff'. I doubt you can guarantee that nothing will be transferred from the old set up though. Even when you buy fish, they may poop BBA spores etc so tricky.
 
Rebel, I think you're right. Although I can minimise this, it's never going to be possible to eliminate completely.

As Martin says, getting the tank right for the plants is the best way of helping to prevent issues.

Buying all new may help to prevent introducing issues. However, as you say, there is no way that you can be certain any shop you buy from is 100% 'clean'.

I want to give the tank the best start with nitrifying bacteria etc. To help introduce a larger population of bacteria, I think Stu is correct, it would be good to move one third of the media from my old filter. I do think you're right that I could put new filter media into the old before moving to the new tank.

I might cut the leaves off any crypts I move across. I think JBL say that as there going to melt anyway, you may as well. Stops spores being carried over on the leaves.

However, I've a few Anubias Petite and Microsorum Narrow plants that I'd have liked to transfer, but they look more risky!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Sorry, I meant I could put new filter pads in the old filter before moving to the new tank. Two thirds of the media would be mature, but changing the filter sponges may help reduce transferring some of the spores etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
When my mate cycled the filter for his new tank he just took one of my dirty clogged filter sponges and filter floss and placed them in the bottom of his Eheim filter. Saw no ammonia or nitrite spike in first couple of weeks so just put fish in, no problem.
 
All, very sorry, I wasted your time!

As suggested, I took one third of the media from the old filter and swapped it for new media from the new filter.

However, I couldn't get the new filter to start for 24 hours.

One of ADA's catalogues says that the nitrifying bacteria start to suffer after 30 minutes without oxygen. I figured after 24 hours the nitrifying bacteria would be mostly dead!

I've taken the old filter media out of the new filter. It was a bit small and was breaking up. The propeller was making a terrible noise and I thought it was broken up media that was causing it.

I'm just glad to have the new filter running.

If the new filter doesn't seem to be cycling, I think I'll try Ian-m's suggestion. I've realised I've a new fine filter for my old filter. The old one looks loaded with bacteria!

Once again, thank you for your replies. Sorry to have wasted your time.
 
AndyMcD said:
The old one looks loaded with bacteria!
Click to expand...
likely you're looking at debris - bacteria are mostly microscopic ;)
(massive colonies of some types of bacteria can be visualized when plated out on specialized growth media but these are not usually the sort found in fish tanks)

While nitrifying bacteria may begin to lose activity in the presence of low oxygen levels, they generally just enter a "static" phase rather than death, given care (gently rinse media to remove debris, return flow, ammonia etc) they will usually flourish again ...
 
Alto, please take a look at this website http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

"The cells of nitrifying bacteria are opaque to brownish in color. What you see are actually clumps of bacteria stuck together by their own slime matrix."

The media in my old filter has most definitely changed colour. Rinsing doesn't remove this which suggests it is more than debris.

Also, please note the comment concerning stored materials:

"Unlike species of heterotrophic bacteria, they cannot survive any drying process without killing the organism. In water, they can survive short periods of adverse conditions by utilizing stored materials within the cell. When these materials are depleted, the bacteria die."

Unlike some heterotrophic bacteria that can function without oxygen, nitrifying bacteria cannot. If ADA are recommending that you should get oxygen to your nitrifying bacteria population within 30 minutes, then I figured after 24 hours there wouldn't be a very large population left.
 
I have also posted a gunked up filter foam to someone who was starting a new tank. I wrapped the square of filter foam in a couple of poly bags put in jiffy bag and posted it. It arrived couple of days later, he put it in his external filter and started tank. Saw no ammonia or nitrite spike so planted and fish filled the tank immediately. He even posted me back the foam many months later but didn't use as already replaced in my filter.
 
Bacteria will move in on day one. To get a second filter going simply run it in a cycled tank or add some existing media to it. When moving to a new tank, move the existing one over and just add the new one. Bacteria will do the rest. Bacteria colonies will only grow as large as food source allows, so a larger tank doesn't mean more bacteria, a larger bio load does.

TGM are basically rinsing the ammonia that leaches from the ADA substrate out with large water changes. Their filters are already full of mature bacteria. With the size of their tanks it is easier to do in tank which may well nuke most of the filter bacteria and so they have to cycle the tank. For a comparatively tiny 140l tank just stick the substrate in a couple of buckets, fill them up and then replace water every other day for 2-3 weeks or so (as per their recommendation)

Scape, add water and then add the filters. Done
 
AndyMcD said:
Alto, please take a look at this website
Click to expand...
nice article but no references, materials, methods, actual data to support the stated details ... if you use google scholar or similar you'll find peer reviewed scientific journal papers with detailed analysis of water column & media etc bacteria isolated from aquaria (though you'll likely need subscription status to read most papers)

AndyMcD said:
The media in my old filter has most definitely changed colour. Rinsing doesn't remove this which suggests it is more than debris.
Click to expand...
mine (eheim substrate) hasn't - other than displaying the effects of flowing water - & no "slime matrix"

The biofilm (slime) supports various bacteria (including some bacteria of interest) so you can use it "jump start" tanks, but my clean seeming "efisubstrate" will be effective as well.
 
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