Ammonia Spike

[Daneland]

I have Juwel 125 tank, for a long time I have not tested it for ammonia.I could not see all my rummy nose tetras (one missing) and I tested ammonia and it was around 0.25-0.5 ppm, nil nitrite & nitrate. I did a WC 40% last Sunday.I added an old circulation pump to increase flow. No new fish added recently and not very heavily stocked tank. I did a 50 % WC after tested tap water for ammonia (it was nil) and added overdosed Seachem prime to detoxify ammonia as instructed on the bottle ( I use it for WCs as well) I will keep WC and will add Tetra Safe start to help the beneficial bacteria.
I dont do substrate cleaning as most of the tank is inaccessible and feed the fish carefully. I cleaned the media at the last WC,only the top bit though.(There are 2 compartments of media I clean the top one every other week and bottom in every 6-8 weekish with tank water.It is Juwel's intank filter system.)
The fish dont look stressed but as I have said at least one missing, I cant see one of the Ottos too but they are not very easy to spot, I thought it might be just hiding.
When I did WC 2 weeks ago, I forgot to add Seachem prime when did the WC and turned the filter on but I realised what I did in 30 seconds and stopped the filter and added SP to the tank directly.
Any suggestions to find the root and advice how to deal with the situation.

 

[Angus]

Water companies will add ammonia from time to time when there are works that could risk contamination or backwash into the drinking water system, i actually personally spoke to a thames water manager who was surveying outside where i live, he told me the amount they use is negligable though and would not be enough to affect freshwater fish, but that is just what i was told, he said they usually apply it around seal ends on pipework on an isolated system, then flush the ammonia out of the joining point via an outlet valve.

Other than that it sounds like you may have nuked your filter bacteria by forgetting the prime but it sounds like you got it in time, i usually turn off my filters during a W/C

i didn't see you wrote about cleaning the filter, you may well have disturbed the lower level of the filter, which over time will have a higher ammonia accumulation inside of it than the top level, i would always recommend cleaning the filter all together at the same time, with the same frequency.

 

[Kalum]

With your tap water testing zero for ammonia and you not having any nitrates at all before WC it sounds like you might have somehow killed the beneficial bacteria and have other yourself back into cycling the tank again

 

[Angus]

Ammonia will not be detected in tap water via cheap ammonia tests, it binds with chlorine to form chloramines whilst in the piping system.

 

[tam]

I sort of recall something about Chloramine in the tap + dechlorinator can add up to a false positive on an ammonia test, that's actually ammonium or ammonia locked up in some way that it's not an actual issue. Don't take that as 100% though.

 

[Daneland]

I will test the water this evening again. See how it goes.

 

[ian_m]

Water companies will add ammonia from time to time when there are works that could risk contamination or backwash into the drinking water system

Its chloramine water companies add to water & water pipes after "issues". Adding ammonia wouldn't be easy, wouldn't be safe to do and make the water taste cr*p. Chloramine is removed by most good dechlorinators, though generally will need higher dose than if chlorine was present.

If you are carbon filtering your water first, take note RO water users, this breaks down the chloramine to chlorine and ammonia. The chlorine get readily absorbed by the carbon, but the ammonia is only removed slowly and if not careful it can be present in the water output. Obviously adding Prime or simply leaving the water 24 hours will remove/degas the ammonia.

Ammonia test kits are notoriously unreliable, even more so in presence of dechlorinators, where you may get a false positive ie test kits says ammonia where in fact there is none. Some ammonia test kits fail to read in presence of dechlorinators.

 

[Angus]

Its chloramine water companies add to water & water pipes after "issues". Adding ammonia wouldn't be easy, wouldn't be safe to do and make the water taste cr*p. Chloramine is removed by most good dechlorinators, though generally will need higher dose than if chlorine was present.

Ammonia can be dosed into the water following final chlorination to form a longer lasting disinfectant.

Ammonia reacts with chlorine to form chloramines, which decay at a slower rate compared to free chlorine.

This can be useful if the water has to travel large distances to reach customer properties.

However, chloramines are less effective disinfectants compared to chlorine, so it is important to disinfect the water with free chlorine first, before converting it into chloramines.

That is from the thames water website.
the manager i spoke to told me they don't add chloramines directly as it is impractical, they add an ammonium product around the seal edges then as it is flushes it reacts with residual chlorine in the system to produce chloramines, no offence intended of course ian, just something to read.

Regards, Gus.

 

[ian_m]

Correct they add ammonia to already chlorinated water to produce chloramine. However only enough ammonia is added react with the chlorine to produce mono-chloramine. Generally there will be no ammonia in the water. Ammonia is bad as it can be bio-converted to nitrite, which is toxic, so great care is taken in the dosing amounts. Dosing is easy as you know know the ppm chlorine in supplied water so you just dose the required ppm ammonia.

 

[Daneland]

I have tested it again just now and it is 0.5 ppm.The fish look happy and active and eating food.Shrimps are active, Ottos are munching on the leaves??? I am puzzled??! Should I add Seachem Prime again , keep doing WC or just leave it??!??

 

[Angus]

Correct they add ammonia to already chlorinated water to produce chloramine. However only enough ammonia is added react with the chlorine to produce mono-chloramine. Generally there will be no ammonia in the water. Ammonia is bad as it can be bio-converted to nitrite, which is toxic, so great care is taken in the dosing amounts. Dosing is easy as you know know the ppm chlorine in supplied water so you just dose the required ppm ammonia.

exactly right ian, what you are talking about is the stage at the water processing plant, but also i am referring to the situation that is more likely to affect fishkeepers, the situation where they dig up a main, and then flush ammonia back into the system to produce mono-chloramine to ensure the water supply is safe to drink in an on-site situation, it happens all too frequently, it is really important as a fishkeeper to know what is coming out of your tap, but saying that i have never had any problems with my water, i think it goes through a pre filter in the communal supply.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I could not see all my rummy nose tetras (one missing)

I wouldn't overly worry about it too much. Fish deaths just happen, that's the way it is. Unless you see something up with all your fish. Every now and again someone will lose one fish and it isn't always down to water quality. Ottos are notoriously finicky as well so I wouldn't gauge what's going on in the tank on them.

 

[tam]

You could test your tap, add some dechlorinator to the tap water and then retest - that would tell you if it was a false positive from the tap/dechlorinator interaction.

 

[Angus]

Regardless of the tap water issue, i feel the more like culprit is the way you are managing the filter box, sedimentation and ammonia build up is probably occuring in the lower layer of the filter media, and being released when you clean the upper layer, i would really consider cleaning it all at the same time.

Yes the bacteria in your filter will break down ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but what can also happen to filters that are not cleaned very often is you can "lock" ammonia into the filter media and the silt builds up over time creating more of an environment for ammonia to be "locked" away, and when you disturb this, for example bumping your filter, or hitting your filter, it can result in locked ammonia being released into the water column.

 

[Daneland]

Regardless of the tap water issue, i feel the more like culprit is the way you are managing the filter box, sedimentation and ammonia build up is probably occuring in the lower layer of the filter media, and being released when you clean the upper layer, i would really consider cleaning it all at the same time.

Yes the bacteria in your filter will break down ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but what can also happen to filters that are not cleaned very often is you can "lock" ammonia into the filter media and the silt builds up over time creating more of an environment for ammonia to be "locked" away, and when you disturb this, for example bumping your filter, or hitting your filter, it can result in locked ammonia being released into the water column.

Next time I will clean both together.Actually, I should move to an external filter. It will give me some more space in the tank as well..

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

the situation where they dig up a main, and then flush ammonia back into the system to produce mono-chloramine to ensure the water supply is safe to drink in an on-site situation, it happens all too frequently,

We have a <"few threads"> about this, it is a real issue and one of the reasons <"I use rain-water">.

Actually, I should move to an external filter.

You just need to make sure all the filter media is aerobic, plants take care of the nitrate. Have a look at <"Siporax vs....">.

I have tested it again just now and it is 0.5 ppm.The fish look happy and active and eating food.Shrimps are active, Ottos are munching on the leaves??? I am puzzled??

You're fine, you don't have any ammonia, it is the Seachem Safe/Prime that gives you a false ammonia reading.

Some dechlorinators specifically deal with chloramine, but the <"mechanism for this isn't entirely clear"> and Seachem won't tell you how "Safe/Prime" works, but <"Kordon's "Amquel"> has a patent and I would be very surprised if the mode of action of "Prime" is much different.

cheers Darrel

 

[alto]

I have tested it again just now and it is 0.5 ppm.The fish look happy and active and eating food.Shrimps are active, Ottos are munching on the leaves??? I am puzzled??! Should I add Seachem Prime again , keep doing WC or just leave it??!??

Which test kit are you using?

Have you read the Prime FAQ

As long as fish are active & happy, I'd not focus too much on the ammonia reading

Despite having failed to add Prime etc for 30 seconds, I very much doubt this affected your filter bacteria ... they are usually pretty resistant once established
Same goes for rinsing sponges etc, most of what is removed is debris & various bacteria associated with the debris (not the sort we want large numbers of our tanks anyway)

If in any doubt, just feed sparingly every second or third day - fish manage less food much more easily than measurable ammonia/nitrites - and increase water change frequency, eg 25% daily if you can manage, 40-50% if done second or third day

 

[Daneland]

Which test kit are you using?

Have you read the Prime FAQ

As long as fish are active & happy, I'd not focus too much on the ammonia reading

Despite having failed to add Prime etc for 30 seconds, I very much doubt this affected your filter bacteria ... they are usually pretty resistant once established
Same goes for rinsing sponges etc, most of what is removed is debris & various bacteria associated with the debris (not the sort we want large numbers of our tanks anyway)

If in any doubt, just feed sparingly every second or third day - fish manage less food much more easily than measurable ammonia/nitrites - and increase water change frequency, eg 25% daily if you can manage, 40-50% if done second or third day

Its API.I will feed a bit less fro a while and add some Tetra Safe Start to help the number of bacterias. Thanks to you all for taking time and answering my question.