(Ammonia) Fishless Cycle with Blackout

[waterspider]

Has anyone here ever tried a fishless cycle (w ammonia) in blackout to avoid algae? I saw a passing reference to it on one post for starting a low tech planted tank, but found no further details on it. I did, however, read that the desired nitrifying bacteria are photosensitive, so might actually prefer a dark tank anyway, so long as they're wet and have oxygen.

tldr back story, if you're interested.

I'm new on here *waves hello*. I cut my teeth on fishkeeping for the first time less than a year ago, when I moved in with my sister and kind of commandered her somewhat neglected 120ltr tank full of guppies. I've planted it a little, but it's tough working around the fish, and I really like hardscaping layouts. So I decided I wanted to try my own 65ltr planted tank last Nov - with a dominant cliff cave, and a lot of height. I initially opting not to do a fishless cycle (as many here recommend), but algae ripped through it before the plants could establish. (I was trying for a HC lawn - might have been too ambitious for a newb) After fighting with it, giving up on it, then starting at it again more recently - but as soon as I did so, BAM! algae everywhere again. Grrr.

So I've stripped it back to the hardscaping, and as there's no flora or fauna, figured I'd give this a go. Took me a week to kill off the algae and clear dead sludge, and I started the cycle today.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Hello waterspider...Using ammonia to fishless cycle a tank is perhaps not the best of ideas. Take a look at the Tutorials section; there is a wealth of good advice about setting up both high and low-energy planted tanks. And try a search for fishless cycling...for starters - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/should-i-fishless-cycle-a-new-planted-tank.27103/

 

[waterspider]

Thanks Troi. I did read through lots of these before opting to try this method, given that trying a silent cycle across Nov to Feb just cost me a lot of dead, algae-choked plants!

True, I have been bumbling through a learning curve, and have an idea of other things were amiss. One thing I worry about, for example, but need to keep an eye on to be sure, is this just might not be a good layout and tank for the plants I wanted - the tank is slightly tall, with 50ltrs vol left after hardscaping, I'm stuck with a two-tube PL G23 light fitting in the hood, and the cliff cave could be obstructing flow (i have two pumps in it now creating a strong circular flow.) . At the moment I can't do much about the lights, so it might just have to be a barer tank with planting on the "cliff top" But at least I'm happy with the hardscape.

I'd opt for a silent cycle if (who am I kidding - WHEN, lol) I get a bigger tank that I can set up well for plants from what I learn from this tank.

 

[ceg4048]

So I've stripped it back to the hardscaping, and as there's no flora or fauna, figured I'd give this a go. Took me a week to kill off the algae and clear dead sludge, and I started the cycle today.

Hello, sorry to say, but this is a pointless endeavor.
Your algae has nothing to do with not haven used ammonia, which is a bad idea anyway. You have fundamental structural issues with your technique that is causing the demise of the plants in the tank. So the plant health is poor and algae attack as a result of poor plant health. It doesn't matter if you do a blackout because after you turn the lights on the algae will return. You will not affect bacteria by having the tank dark. Bacteria do not really care whether you have lights on or not.

Probably you are using too much light. This can be altered by either removing a single bulb, or if that is not feasible, then the light must be obscured somehow by some type of obfuscation.
Probably you have insufficient flow or your flow distribution method is faulty.
Probably you have not added enough nutrition.
Of all things, most probably you have poor CO2 execution.

Investigate these area and your tank can be algae free. Ammonia addition is irrelevant. and does as much damage as it does good. Fix plant heath, then algae will go away.

Cheers,

 

[waterspider]

I agree, ceg - except as a novice, I'm in the unfortunate position of needing to add big old question marks after all your points.

I was originally going to write a dozen questions newb post, but it was so long, I just couldn't subject you guys to that! I'm starting to understand most of this stuff, but getting the interactions right on a trial and error basis is just too much, which is why I figured trying a more systematic approach that layers in on thing at a time.

For example, this tank I 4mths old now, I started it with established media, and not all the plants died. For all I know it had cycled, as it reads a pretty consistent 12.5 on nitrate. But I have no idea if that's a true cycle reading, as I've also since heard some manufacturers add it to the substrate as a nutrient (I'm using eco complete) I don't want to experiment with fish, so I figured adding ammonia would be a better way to test. I've just done a 24hr test, ammonia has dropped a little I think - it was a definite 4, now it looks closer to, but not quite 2, N03 still at 12.5, N02 at lowest >.3

My next issue is an unstable pH when I add C02 (DIY), which I *think* is due to my local water KH being low (3 - but I've had tank readings as low as .5). I really hadn't wanted to start using using buffers. Also LFS recommend waterlife 7.2, but I've since heard a) it's phosphate based and b) others say they're useless. So I'm looking at bicarbonate soda.

Next up in my plans was adding fast hardy plants and addressing lights, then looking at C02 again. I have increased flow - got a fluval 2 running up the hardscape slope, and a 1 directed to flow at an angle to the "cliff" - bit too much "kit" for a tank this size.

But, hey, if none of this works I can bung in water lettuce, bring the lights right down, and just have a hardscaped tank while I save up for proper kit.

I do hear what your saying though. I might see how this ammonia runs through for another few days, but not top it up, to see if I can get a more decisive reading, and think it through. Good to get confirmation that black out won't negatively effect bacteria. Thanks.

 

[nickmcmechan]

Tbh as a newbieI probably wouldn't go down the high tech co2 route, there is less tolerance for errors, and, as a newb, you will have more errors...that's how the learning curve works for most IME

Perhaps a low tech approach with easy plants would be better? Once you learn success with low tech and why, it may be easier to go for a high tech tank? I'm not saying people can't go straight for high tech, but the probability for success could be higher with low tech?

I had high tech a few years ago and found it tricky to get the balance, eventually I canned it. Doing a couple of low tech now and enjoying spending more time looking at my tank than maintaining it, it suits me and suits my lifestyle. TBH 4 months of going at high tech co2 without success is telling you to change what you are doing.

 

[waterspider]

Yay - got pics working. (Albeit not very good pics from my phone)

As I'm restarting, I will be going low tech initially, though I need to read round other's posts for ideas on plants for these tank proportions - it could easily look very crowded.

This was the most recent pic I took pre algae. Most of the plants, except the moss and ricca on top of the bogwood) are alive in containers or in my big tank. They did best on the slope (which had subsided a bit and has been reinforced and rebuilt), but you can clearly see the "deadzone" where all the trouble started under the bogwood arch. (Ignore the bonsai tree - I was just playing around with that.) I've since added a shallow layer of fine gravel to minimise substrate disturbance, as I'm unlikely to get my lawn. The fluval 2 is still top left (facing), with the 1 to the bottom left.

Any ideas for low tech plants?

 

[Tim Harrison]

Hey waterspider, Clive (ceg) is absolutely right, that's why I pointed you in the direction of the tutorial section...if you're going low-energy this tutorial and accompanying thread is perhaps a good place to start http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/ It should answer most of your questions and get you going positively in the right direction. There is also a list of plants suitable for low-energy endeavours at the end of the tutorial.

 

[ceg4048]

1. Read and study Troi's link thoroughly.
2. Stop testing and please throw away all of those silly test kits. Test kits are the single worst habit a newbie can possibly develop. That's part of the reason for your failure. Test kits turn you into a hamster and you will be on the little spinning wheel for the rest of your life. The only thing I can imagine being worse than the use of test kits is the use of ammonia.
3. Plants do not care about media. Forget about that immediately.
4. Neither plants no fish care about unstable pH. This is another area designed to suck the money out of your pockets. You do not need buffers and you really don't need baking soda.
5. You need to feed your plants. If you decide to resume the CO2 then please GO TO THE TUTORIAL SECTION as Troi mention and read the articles there. If you decide to go low tech then you still need to feed your plants, but not as much. PLANTS NEED NITRATE AND PHOSPHATE. Hello, are you getting this part? Nutrients don't cause algae. Lack of nutrients causes algae. Your plants starved to death and then they were attacked by algae.
6. You really need to stop adding ammonia to the tank. The tank is fine after 4 months. All your test kit readings are false.
7. It doesn't matter what plants you get. If you starve them and use too much light they will die. Fast growing plants will simply starve to death faster.
8. Did I mention you need to feed your plants?

Cheers,

 

[Tim Harrison]

Test kits turn you into a hamster and you will be on the little spinning wheel for the rest of your life.

Haha...absolutely right...Hamsters are very cute - but they're crap at testing stuff...and they smell...but they love wheels...and rotostak...

 

[waterspider]

Yeah - finding the advice really helpful (great tutorial, there by the way), but the agro condescension a but c***tish. Think I'm going to hunt down a different group. Bye.