Advice regarding my first tank

[Dominik K]

Hi All

I've been growing my tank using DSM.
After 5 weeks of growth I decided to flood the tank. Most people recommend waiting 4-6 weeks so went middle of the road.
First ever tank, aqua scape and iwagumi (journal here)

So far I'm fairly happy with my progress. Having overcome some minor teething problems (not putting medium into the filter, and not straightening out the hoses before connecting) i now have my first tank flooded, filtering away.
The water is surprisingly clean. Was expecting a lot more clouding. So far so good. I'm a bit worried the plants might get a bit of a shock because our water is very hard and I've been using mainly rainwater for misting/watering.

Set up:
64 L tank
Tropica aquarium soil and Tropica powder substrate
Hard scape & Eleocharis Acicularis 'Mini' with Lilaeopsis brasiliensis for my plants.
Oase filtrosmart thermo 100 + Lily pipes filtration.
Ireenuo LED Aquarium Light Full spectrum 16W 20.5" LED light running on a 24hr cycle.

First of all - Anything that jumps out that screams wrong?

Couple things I would like advice on:

1. Planning for future livestock, I've discovered AQadvisor website - But what volume should I use to calculate?
The tank volume is 64L but I have a decent amount of substrate and rocks estimating about 25% space taken up by this. Do I enter the total volume of the tank or should I subtract the 25% which is taken up by stuff?

2. Should the lily pipe outflow be fully submerged?

3. My water is very hard - I'm waiting 48 before doing parameters test to find out the exact amounts but according to my supplier its 16.13 German (115.2 Ca mg/l)
Is there a way I can soften the water at water changes? I've mainly been using rain water to mist/water my plants I'm worried the very hard water might mess with them.

4. Is algea growth always a thing? I understand Co2 tends to prevent it.
But id like to avoid CO2 if possible. Currently I've opted for Co2 spray thing rather then an in tank diffuser. Anyone use these?

5. The tank is rimless and lidless. I'm aware fish like Bettas could jump out, and Snails could escape but apart from that is there anything I need to consider?
Is having a cover recommended?

6. Anyone have tips on how best to clean the glass at water level very hard water leaves marks..

7. Do shrimps go for plants/roots? Are any species less likely to go for plants than others? I read that Amanos are particularly voracious. A lot of my grass seems to have exposed roots. Wanted to get some shrimps but worried they will go to town on my carpet.


Here some pics for context.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Zeus.]

1. Planning for future livestock, I've discovered AQadvisor website - But what volume should I use to calculate?
The tank volume is 64L but I have a decent amount of substrate and rocks estimating about 25% space taken up by this. Do I enter the total volume of the tank or should I subtract the 25% which is taken up by stuff?

Ignore the hardscape and use the tank volume for everything, I would call it 60litrres for an easy life.

2. Should the lily pipe outflow be fully submerged?

Adjusting the lily pipe height will increase/decrease surface agitation which will affect flow in the tank and O2 uptake and CO2 loss, so there is a fine balance and it needs to suit your needs. T Amano use to have them higher at night to degas tank of CO2 and increase O2 uptake and then lower them form CO2 on till lights off.

3. My water is very hard - I'm waiting 48 before doing parameters test to find out the exact amounts but according to my supplier its 16.13 German (115.2 Ca mg/l)
Is there a way I can soften the water at water changes? I've mainly been using rain water to mist/water my plants I'm worried the very hard water might mess with them.

I had 140mg/l Ca before I moved and the same carpet as yours did fine 50cm below water, the plants will need time to adjust to growing underwater as they have been use to 400ppm CO2 in the DSM so getting the CO2 right is critical at this stage. I would aim for a full 1.0pH drop and make sure the pH is stable from lights on till CO2 off.

4. Is algea growth always a thing? I understand Co2 tends to prevent it.
But id like to avoid CO2 if possible.

having injected CO2 will increase the chances of success with your scape, if the CO2 is done well -see point 3.

5. The tank is rimless and lidless.

A glass lid will help, having it easy to remove makes life easier for maintenance

6. Anyone have tips on how best to clean the glass at water level very hard water leaves marks..

Regular maintenance

7. Do shrimps go for plants/roots? Are any species less likely to go for plants than others? I read that Amanos are particularly voracious. A lot of my grass seems to have exposed roots. Wanted to get some shrimps but worried they will go to town on my carpet.

Shrimps make a great clean up crew, however if left to go hungry Amanos can eat some plants, in my 500l I had 50-60 Amanos and thousand's of RCS

I would advise getting the CO2 right before introducing any live stock. getting a stable pH from lights on till CO2 off is key and is tricky to do.

 

[Dominik K]

Hi Zeus thank you for dropping me some knowledge.

Couple of things; In terms of lights, I've been running my lights on a 24hr cycle (as that's what the light came with as a feature and looks cool.. ). Blue lights during the night particularly.
I assume the "lights on" period is when the program makes the brightest light between 9am-3pm. Tank also gets adecent dose of natural light too. Should I stop this and switch to a strict light on / off time period?
One of the videos I watched mentioned blue lights during the night feed algae but I have not verified this.

I have a Interpret Co2 dosing thing which is basicaly a little spray bottle.
I wanted to avoud CO2 injection if possible to save cst as well as not trusting myself with that kind of gear. I guess it really is necessary ?

If it helps - 48Hrs after running the tank filter:
This measurement was taken towards light off period and 20 minutes after dosing some Co2

No3 = 80-160 (struggling to tell the difference between these two colours, seems to be in between?)

No2 = 0

PH = 6.5

KH = 40

GH = 60

I will be honest the only thing I really understand is the PH. I understand the importance of No3 as well but not sure about the other parameters.
Is there a way I can measure Co2 ?

 

[Dominik K]

Fwiw Id like to keep the following fish:

And possibly a couple shrimp if they dont eat me plants

The AqAdvisor website displays the parameter for hardness in Dh how do I calculate what my Dh is ?

 

[Zeus.]

I assume the "lights on" period is when the program makes the brightest light between 9am-3pm

No from when the lights come on till the lights go off, do plants only use light at brightest times ?
As soon as the plants get enough light their photosynthesis engines kick in, at this time you should already be at your target [CO2], then 'ideally' keep at that [CO2] for 4-5 hrs min.
Any light is light for algae IMO

Interpret Co2 dosing thing which is basicaly a little spray bottle.

Have you got a link for that?

Is there a way I can measure Co2 ?

@ceg4048 article CO2 Measurement Using A Drop Checker, we can also use pH as a proxy- if you get a 1.0pH drop from an overnight 'full' degas of tank till lowest pH it is 30 ppm CO2

 

[Karmicnull]

6. Anyone have tips on how best to clean the glass at water level very hard water leaves marks..

Wet a piece of kitchen paper with vinegar and rub it round the water mark. The vinegar will dissolve the scale. As Zeus says you have to keep on top of it, but it works wonders. if one or two drips of vinegar end up in the tank they'll be trivial in comparison to the tank volume, and won't harm the livestock

Id like to keep the following fish:

Some things to bear in mind

• Otos are a community fish; you should get a minimum of 6. you're much more likely to find Otocinclus Macrospilus in most LFSs - but they'll all go under the badge of 'Oto' regardless of which variety they are! Also note that Otos need Aufwachs to thrive as well as algae / courgettes / nettles / etc.
• What hardness do the fish like? a lot of amazonian fish like softer water. YMMV on this - a lot of people make the case that fish have adapted to the aquarium trade and hardness isn't so important.
• Hillstream loaches like fast flowing water, worth checking (if you haven't already) that the other fish are all good with that. <seriously fish> is your friend for all this info. For example <Honey Gouramis>.
• When it comes to whether they will eat shrimp or not googling on "xxx and cherry shrimp" usually gets you enough anecdotes to make your mind up as to whether you want to risk it. Same for Amanos. For my first tank I was very risk averse and steered clear of both neon tetras and honey gouramis. I think I might be a bit more gung-ho now, but I'd make sure the shrimp colony was up and running, and there were plenty of places for them to hide before I introduced the fish.
• For a 60L tank you could easily have several nerite snails - my 60L has three, as well as a ton of giant ramshorn, normal ramshorn and pond snails.

AqAdvisor is a great starting point - it's conservative, so if you hit ~100% you know you're fine. Once you've got the hang of your tank you may feel comfortable going higher; typicially if you've got a scape your filtration (artificial and plants) is high and you are doing regular frequent water changes, all which make the tank a clean and healthy environment for fish.

Cheers,
Simon

 

[MichaelJ]

• Otos are a community fish; you should get a minimum of 6.

@Karmicnull My Otos seems to be completely unaware of the notion that they are supposed to be hanging out... I never see them together... maybe all of mine are all loners

 

[MichaelJ]

3. My water is very hard - I'm waiting 48 before doing parameters test to find out the exact amounts but according to my supplier its 16.13 German (115.2 Ca mg/l)
Is there a way I can soften the water at water changes? I've mainly been using rain water to mist/water my plants I'm worried the very hard water might mess with them.

Hard water is not an issue for plants (some rare exceptions apply). It's really only a concern for livestock (and most fish will be fine in hard water anyway as @Karmicnull points out) - I am personally a believer in trying to keep my tanks water parameters as close as possible to the ones found in my livestocks natural habitats, but its obviously always going to be a compromise as I am mixing species that are not necessarily found together in the wild.

4. Is algea growth always a thing? I understand Co2 tends to prevent it.

If by "thing" you mean problem, then no, algae is not always a problem... yes, they are always there, but you can totally have a visually algae free tank regardless whether your injecting CO2 or not. Getting it right is what prevents algae to become a problem... It's more complicated, in my opinion, with a CO2 injected tank as you add another dimension of complexity, but also get the benefit of more/better growth and the ability to keep far more challenging plants...IF you get the CO2/flow/light right that is... With a non-injected tank you basically only have to worry about your light levels/intensity, flow/circulation, fertilization and maintenance... and you get much, much slower growth and have to be less ambitious about your plant selections.

6. Anyone have tips on how best to clean the glass at water level very hard water leaves marks..

A bit of vinegar as @Karmicnull said above works wonders.

7. Do shrimps go for plants/roots? Are any species less likely to go for plants than others? I read that Amanos are particularly voracious. A lot of my grass seems to have exposed roots. Wanted to get some shrimps but worried they will go to town on my carpet.

Amanons certainly go for certain plants. Neocaridina davidi varieties do not - at least not in my experience.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Dominik K]

No from when the lights come on till the lights go off, do plants only use light at brightest times ?
As soon as the plants get enough light their photosynthesis engines kick in, at this time you should already be at your target [CO2], then 'ideally' keep at that [CO2] for 4-5 hrs min.
Any light is light for algae IMO


Have you got a link for that?



@ceg4048 article CO2 Measurement Using A Drop Checker, we can also use pH as a proxy- if you get a 1.0pH drop from an overnight 'full' degas of tank till lowest pH it is 30 ppm CO2

Sure its this stuff here:

Amazon product ASIN B08XDJBMY1
Sorry If I'm being a bit thick, but how do I tell when the period is in my set up? There is a constant supply of some light apart from night time where its blue light only until about 6 am.
In my mind the theory is that the plants will have enough light to start photo synthesise at sun up @ 6-7Am.

Wet a piece of kitchen paper with vinegar and rub it round the water mark. The vinegar will dissolve the scale. As Zeus says you have to keep on top of it, but it works wonders. if one or two drips of vinegar end up in the tank they'll be trivial in comparison to the tank volume, and won't harm the livestock


Some things to bear in mind

• Otos are a community fish; you should get a minimum of 6. you're much more likely to find Otocinclus Macrospilus in most LFSs - but they'll all go under the badge of 'Oto' regardless of which variety they are! Also note that Otos need Aufwachs to thrive as well as algae / courgettes / nettles / etc.
• What hardness do the fish like? a lot of amazonian fish like softer water. YMMV on this - a lot of people make the case that fish have adapted to the aquarium trade and hardness isn't so important.
• Hillstream loaches like fast flowing water, worth checking (if you haven't already) that the other fish are all good with that. <seriously fish> is your friend for all this info. For example <Honey Gouramis>.
• When it comes to whether they will eat shrimp or not googling on "xxx and cherry shrimp" usually gets you enough anecdotes to make your mind up as to whether you want to risk it. Same for Amanos. For my first tank I was very risk averse and steered clear of both neon tetras and honey gouramis. I think I might be a bit more gung-ho now, but I'd make sure the shrimp colony was up and running, and there were plenty of places for them to hide before I introduced the fish.
• For a 60L tank you could easily have several nerite snails - my 60L has three, as well as a ton of giant ramshorn, normal ramshorn and pond snails.

AqAdvisor is a great starting point - it's conservative, so if you hit ~100% you know you're fine. Once you've got the hang of your tank you may feel comfortable going higher; typicially if you've got a scape your filtration (artificial and plants) is high and you are doing regular frequent water changes, all which make the tank a clean and healthy environment for fish.

Cheers,
Simon

Ok thanks for the tip. I've been using vinegar to clean all sorts of glassware including tank prior to flooding.
I was worried about using vinegar water on cloth in case some drip in.


To clarify, im not too worried about fish eating the shrimp. Im worried about shrimps killing off my carpet roots I would definitely like some shrimp but ive read very conflicting accounts on their treatment of plants
I'm not dead set - but a small school of tetras and a Honey gourami seem like a nice combo.

However , I'm prioritising my clean-up fish before deciding on other fish. Tbh I'm not sure about the loach. Id like one because I don't think my tank is big enough for a pleco and they look pretty ruddy cool and sre supposedly excellent algea eaters.
Could potnetialy get a zebra pleco but it has the same issues as the loach in terms of liking fast flowing oxygenated water and being very expensive. So probably not a good idea for a beginner. Also I don't have any driftwood whcih they need aparently.

Apart from nerites and the Otos I don't know of any other good algea eaters that I could get apart from the Hillstream loach. I was considering other snails but with the tank being open topped mystery snails and other types would likely climb out so nerites seems like go to. I think All plecos will get too big?

Thanks for the advice. When using the Aqadvisor im aiming for a 85% or lower because I like to be on he safe side.

A lot of fish I like seem to prefer less hard water, what can I do to lower hardness or am I pretty stuffed in this regard?


My plan is:

Do a test when I get home from work 6am, once test done add the CO2 and another one mid day when the light is at its most intense 6 hrs or so later and then another test following a big water change.

 

[sparkyweasel]

They like to call those products 'liquid CO2', but they are not. Most (and I think this includes yours, check the label) are based on gluteraldehyde, a disinfectant and biocide. It may help plants to thrive by killing algae, but not by increasing the CO2 level. It also kills some plants, even at the recommended dose.

Ramshorn snails are good, and not prone to leaving the tank.

Most fish will be fine with your water hardness, including the species you listed.
I would leave the Hillstream Loach out, they like fast-flowing, well-aerated water and a lower temperature than most 'tropical' fish. But don't worry, this hobby is quite addictive, - it may not be long before you have several tanks on the go and you can dedicate one to their needs.

 

[Dominik K]

Thanks for the insight.. Yeah its gluteraldehyde 🙈
Requested a return already. This stuff sounds nasty...
Is there any feasible alternatives to a proper CO2 injector ?

Im going to do some more tests today and see.

 

[foxfish]

You managed a good bit of growth during your dry start, dont expect anything like that when full of water, not even with added C02!
You seem to want to use your light 24 7 I dont think that is a good idea especially fot the first few weeks.
I would be starting off with 7-8 hours of gently lighting with very short ramp up times. It may be possible with a low tech tank, to supply a lower intensity light for slightly longer that a high tech tank but, not from day one.

It is not to difficult to grow plants without added C02 but you need to be realistic about the prospects and except it wont happen overnight, don't expect lush compact plants like you see in an injected tank.

This is just my own personal opinion and you must of course do as you wish … but I find no pleasure in watching an overstocked tank, I much prefer to see a few healthy inmates.

 

[Dominik K]

So this is wierd..

I was using 5 in 1 strips previously.

At 6am I had the following:
No3 - 80
No2 - 0
Ph - 6.5
KH - 40
GH - 180

at 3pm

No3 - 80
No2 - 0
Ph - 6.5
KH - 0
GH - 180

I went into a LFS to look at some of their life stock and get a thermometer and also pick up a new testing kit.
I got one with reagents for Nitrate, Amonia & PH

Ph - 6.5
Amonia (Nh3) - 0
Nitrite (NO2) - 0

Is this is a case of the test stripe being crap and unreliable?
I was expecting some readings after growing the tank for weeks using DSM.

 

[Dominik K]

You managed a good bit of growth during your dry start, dont expect anything like that when full of water, not even with added C02!
You seem to want to use your light 24 7 I dont think that is a good idea especially fot the first few weeks.
I would be starting off with 7-8 hours of gently lighting with very short ramp up times. It may be possible with a low tech tank, to supply a lower intensity light for slightly longer that a high tech tank but, not from day one.

It is not to difficult to grow plants without added C02 but you need to be realistic about the prospects and except it wont happen overnight, don't expect lush compact plants like you see in an injected tank.

This is just my own personal opinion and you must of course do as you wish … but I find no pleasure in watching an overstocked tank, I much prefer to see a few healthy inmates.

Thanks. I totaly understand the growth will be different once tank is flooded. Im happy to take my time. Main concern is algea.
I certainly dont intend to overstock with fish. I already dropped down from my initial plan after some consideration.

In temr sof the light. The tank gets a very good amount of natural light as Its in a living room on 1st floor with the corner of the room facing south/ south east.
The light I have comes with a 24hr cycle program with minimal light occurring during night times. It hasnt got another time, unfortunately. would it be more beneficial to get a timer and just blast max light for 4-5 hrs instead?

 

[foxfish]

Not really a good idea to blast light at any stage as the mass majority of our tanks run on relatively low light.
Underwater plants thrive under high C02 levels but we are limited to around 30ppm if we want our fish to survive but your low tech tank (no added C02) will only have 4-5ppm .
So even with 30ppm we dont use very high lighting as this is a very likely to cause excessive algae, in your case you really want to be carful about lighting!
One way around this is to use floating plants ….

 

[Dominik K]

Not really a good idea to blast light any stage as the mass majority of our tanks run on relatively low light.
Underwater plants thrive under high C02 levels but we are limited to around 30ppm if we want our fish to survive but your low tech tank (no added C02) will only have 4-5ppm .
So even with 30ppm we dont use very high lighting as this is a very likly to cause excessive algae, in your case you really want to be carful about lighting!
One way around this is to use floating plants ….

I like the idea of duckweed. I kind of assumed its not feasible with skimmer filter.

 

[sparkyweasel]

Is there any feasible alternatives to a proper CO2 injector ?

Only a few plants won't grow without injected CO2. Growth will be slower, but, on the plus side you won't have to trim so often. And when things go slower, they go wrong slower too.

Is this is a case of the test stripe being crap and unreliable?

A definitely a possibility.

. would it be more beneficial to get a timer and just blast max light for 4-5 hrs instead?

A timer would be good, but you might not need full power.
The low light at night could promote algae, there are so many species there's always one to exploit any niche. Some can manage on much less light than plants.

I like the idea of duckweed. I kind of assumed its not feasible with skimmer filter.

You can keep floating plants in a controlled area within a floating plastic ring, or fence them into an area with fishing line attached with suckers.
But duckweed is really hard to get rid of if you change your mind. Any other floater is better in my opinion.

 

[Dominik K]

Only a few plants won't grow without injected CO2. Growth will be slower, but, on the plus side you won't have to trim so often. And when things go slower, they go wrong slower too.

A definitely a possibility.

A timer would be good, but you might not need full power.
The low light at night could promote algae, there are so many species there's always one to exploit any niche. Some can manage on much less light than plants.

You can keep floating plants in a controlled area within a floating plastic ring, or fence them into an area with fishing line attached with suckers.
But duckweed is really hard to get rid of if you change your mind. Any other floater is better in my opinion.

Ohh yeah, Ive seen DYI ones with acrylic tubing - easy to make using heat gun& lighter and acrylic tubes. People have been using them to make feeding circles and keep plants out, I did not consider this to keep plants in them. I think fishing line+suckers wouldn't work to well because of water level dropping ( more so for me due to being lidless). But a large ring could work.
TBH i only know of duckweed. What other Plants would you recommend for this purpose ? I've seen people make acrylic holders and growing sweet potato roots down into the tank- Not something I want to do but really cool concept.

What I'm really confused about is the water parameters. I now understand the hardness aspect isn't really a concern my lfs will be using same water so any life stock I get will be used to it.
Id have assumed after 5 weeks of dry start + tap water levels there would be some nitrite/nitrate. I did really keep the tank clean and there was little to no plant death but I expected some from he soil itself. as well as the first dose of fertiliser when I flooded the tank.

 

[sparkyweasel]

TBH i only know of duckweed. What other Plants would you recommend for this purpose ?

I like Salvinia, especially for smaller tanks as it has quite small leaves. Water Lettuce Pistia stratiotes, Red Root Floater Phyllanthus Fluitans, and Amazon Frogbit Limnobium laevigatum are also popular and readily available.

 

[Dominik K]

I like Salvinia, especially for smaller tanks as it has quite small leaves. Water Lettuce Pistia stratiotes, Red Root Floater Phyllanthus Fluitans, and Amazon Frogbit Limnobium laevigatum are also popular and readily available.

Thank you very much! I really like the Red Root Floater. Might be an interesting contrast that or Salvinia.
Time to plan some DYI float ring