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Adding CO2 to a running tank .... I DO NOT WANT A CRASH !!!

iDigit

Seedling
Joined
8 Nov 2016
Messages
16
Location
Switzerland
Hello all,

My CO2 equipment arrived today finally. I want to connect it all up to my Trigon 190 early next week but am scared out of my wits about it after I had a nitrite spike in my other tank - a 120 lit anubia tank - when adding a CO2 set-up ( Söchting Carbonator). Current water values for the Trigon 190 are as shown by the attached image.

At the moment there is no CO2 addition to the tank and the hardness will be addressed this week with the addition of Spagnum moss to the filter and the water change which will contain mostly matured rain water.

However, in connecting the DIY ( Bicarb and Citric Soda) CO2, I want to avoid completely any risk of a crash which will kill my fish and inverts.

Please help as I am doing my first CO2 rig ever, and I do not want it to be a nightmare. I want to be able to react immediately should there be any misshap ... wifey will be the one to suffer this should I be at work ....

Thank you in advance for any assistance

Thank you for your help.
 

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Just a heads up: this JBL strip test is just unreliable. Most aquarium tests available around are somewhat imprecise, but this one is the worst. If you want more details I can provide them.

I would advise to switch to a drop test, even from JBL. They are usable at least.

In regards to the CO2, just start slow. If there was no co2 before, there no reason to from one extreme to the other.

Try to measure the pH drop (and I do NOT mean using the pH/KH chart. If needed I can explain why). Start by dropping the pH in 0.5 point (e.g. from 7.2 to 6.7). A very convenient way to do so is by using a pH sensor. Otherwise you can monitor it every couple hours (tip: use a drop test) just to feel safe about it, maybe in a saturday, when you have time to be around.

Later you can push it further if you want to do so.

Many things will influentiate the CO2 usage: Diffusion method, plant biomass, surface agitation, filtering method, light. A bubble counter is a quick way to check if CO2 is flowing, but it is by no means a way to deal with CO2 dosing/measurements.

Hope it helps :)

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Just go for it. Your water is probably very hard, check your water company, not your test results, you will have to try extremely hard to asphyxiate your fish with hard water. Though it can be done, even easier done with DIY yeast CO2.

So start slowly, observe pH drop using a pH pen NOT TEST KIT. You are aiming for 1pH drop by lights on. Use a drop checker as this solution is isolated from tank water so readings will be accurate and relied upon. You are aiming for green (to yellow?) at lights on.

It is not helped using a DIY yeast kit as they are very high maintenance very not repeatable very variable. CO2 cylinder is way to go. How are you controlling the CO2 levels to prevent too much going in ?
 
Hello again,

OK, let me address the water issue as this one is a no brainer. Our village water is drawn directly from source (out of the mountain) and so there is almost no "processing". However, living in an area where limestone is the main mountain mineral, our water is very hard. If I boil water in my kettle, it takes 4 boils to have a limescale deposit on the entire surface. Basically, I have to descale my appliances once a month else I would be looking at replacing them the month there after.

I do not have a drop checker yet, and I do not have an electronic measuring device for the other parameters ... unfortunately too dear for my pocket at the moment. For this same reason, I am wanting to do a DIY Citric Soda/Bicarb mix as the expense of the pressurised unit is unfortunately out of my reach. I am building up to one as I go along, but the price of a cylinder is at present prohibitive. I scrounge the small ad sites for my stuff and have most of the CO2 kit. Just not the Cylinder.

The liquid drop tests are just too time consuming and expensive ... as everything is in Switzerland. These tests also just simply take the pleasure out of the tank because it becomes a laboratory instead of something to be enjoyed. I am not against them, I am against the time they consume in relation to the time I have at my disposal.

To begin with, I was thinking of working on about a bubble every 2 seconds and keep track of the CO2 in the water. But like I said in my original post, I do not want to suffer another incident of a spike. Luckily, in the 130 lit tank, I do not have any inhabitants so simply doing water changes was all we endured. In my Trigon 190, I have fish and inverts and I do not want any surprises here.

The installation is one where I have almost no intrusion of any sort in the tank .... heater is in line, CO2 will be attached inline too through an inline diffusor. The only intrusions are the filter in and out lets made of glass. I just want to limit any hardware in the tank as much as is humanly possible. I use a canister filter, Eheim 2228. Lighting is with T5 tubes, one Sun-Glo and the other a Gro-Lux by Sylvania.

@ Ed.Junior, I would be interested in the details you have on the unreliability of the ProScan (and others tests other than drop tests). As for the ph/KH chart, I will be honest to admit that I am lost in what you are meaning. My only means of testing for the moment is the JBL ProScan. I have nothing else.

I have not yet made the installation as I do not have enough time at my disposal to monitor the evolution. Outside commitments have me out of house most of the time, especially weekends. It is the reason this tank has taken nearly 8 months to set up .... and only then last 2 with water in the tank ..... the first for cycling.

Thank you all for the input so far. I am very keen to do this right and not to rush. I read every input and appreciate all advice given.
 
To begin with, I was thinking of working on about a bubble every 2 seconds and keep track of the CO2 in the water
The problem here is that there is absolutely no relationship between bubbles per second and CO2 ppm in YOUR tank, so you cannot use bubbles per second to set CO2 level.

The CO2 level will depend on
- The size of your bubbles.
- Bubble rate.
- Any leaks.
- Hardness of water.
- Diffusion method.
- Water movement in the tank.
- Surface agitation, leading to degassing.
- If using DIY then:-
- Time of year !!!
- Temperature of mix.
- Type of mix.
- Size of containers.
- Age of reactor mixture.​
You must use something like a drop checker or pH probe to determine the actual level in the tank.

CO2 will be attached inline too through an inline diffusor
It is unlikely you will achieve enough pressure with DIY CO2 to make an inline diffuser work. They require 2-3 bar to work properly. With DIY you will be stuck with in tank "plate" diffusers that work at lower pressure.

@ Ed.Junior, I would be interested in the details you have on the unreliability of the ProScan (and others tests other than drop tests). As for the ph/KH chart, I will be honest to admit that I am lost in what you are meaning. My only means of testing for the moment is the JBL ProScan. I have nothing else.
Part of the reason is that the hobby grade tests are not very reliable and repeatable, especially multivalent ions like nitrate and phosphate. The issue here is that often the test will also respond to other ions/chemicals in the tank giving false reading. For example nitrate misreads in presence of chloride ions, ammonia misreads in presence of dechlorinator etc etc etc.

If you insist on testing, then unfortunately lab grade kits are the way to go.
http://www.hannainstruments.co.uk/n...gle_shopping&gclid=CLff2uLXuNQCFcWw7QodRlgJ0w
 
@iDigit:
From what I understood, you have to work with you have, and you have yet to dive into the scientific side of the hobby, so please allow me to be straightforward:

While I do understand Ian's point of view on tests (I almost never test), I still see value on the drop tests. I use them from time to time to check stuff, but instead of relying on the precision side, I just look for a ball park number (e.g. are nitrates between 5 - 30 range?).
The JBL strips are just worthless. I had packages stating wrong values (Chlorine through the roof, CO2 is low, stuff that I know is not possible), on others I had repeated tests giving different values, etc. I found out that if I give a big margin on the drop tests, they are usable.

I think it is useful sometimes. But most of the time I am more careful while dosing, which is one of the benefits from EI: you KNOW your dose, no need to keep testing. This would be helpful to you IMO.

On CO2: bio is really too much effort for little results. There is a price barrier, I know, but it is worth it.
Problem with Bio CO2 is its variable output. It might be okay today and bad tomorrow. This variability is impossible to avoid with Bio CO2. With a cylinder things get much easier. I do not test/measure CO2, because the results in plant growth are just obvious.


In the end, if you want to go with it, and rely on the strip tests: watch your fishes. If you see them on the surface, you already went too far.

One of my tanks, no testing, except something every other month.
erRQRL8.jpg



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Hi all,
and the hardness will be addressed this week with the addition of Spagnum moss to the filter and the water change which will contain mostly matured rain water
I'm a rain-water user, and it will work well, but you won't get <"much of a softening effect from the sphagnum peat">, particularly if your mix water is very hard.

Depending a little bit on how much it rains, and whether there is much dust producing activity (quarrying, arable agriculture), you may find that even your rain-water has some dKH. I don't have figures for carbonate hardness, but the conductivity of our rain-water varies from about 100 microS in the summer to ~30 microS in the winter.

cheers Darrel
 
Thank you Ed. Junior and Darrel. I have no idea of the conductivity of the rain water here or any where else I have used it .... And I am also one of these people that does not want to turn my fishtanks into laboratories. I try to have as little intervention as possible, so it is really important for me to get the balance right, hence my fear of a tank crash. The Sphagnum is for the hardness of the water as it has an effect on the GH. The CO2 will affect the PH as I understand. I am doing the DIY CO2 method because the pressurised assembly is prohibitively expensive for me at the moment. I am sure that I shall pass onto a pressurised method once I can afford it, but in the interim I have to make do with what I have and what I can get for free ....

Lovely tank Ed. Jnr, this is what I want to achieve .... and absolutely adore the Eliocauron (I think ) bottom left. Been looking for some of these for a while .... Maybe stumble on some at the AquaFisch salon next year in Germany. My Pogostemon has just not rooted and just floats up after a passage from the corydorases. So I just fish them out and try root them using a drystart method and will attempt a replant later.
 
Hi all,
The Sphagnum is for the hardness of the water as it has an effect on the GH
It won't have a huge amount of effect. Because the sphagnum peat has formed in an ombrotrophic mire all the cation exchange sites are initially filled with protons (H+ ions), which are exchanged for ions with a higher valency, like calcium Ca++, in the tank.

The problem with hard water is that there are a huge amount of Ca++ ions and that water softening, and acidifying, effect doesn't last for very long, because all the H+ ions are rapidly swapped for Ca++ ions.
I have no idea of the conductivity of the rain water here or any where else I have used it .... And I am also one of these people that does not want to turn my fishtanks into laboratories.
I started using conductivity because it is the only parameter you can measure reliably by just dipping a meter into the tank.

cheers Darrel
 
You are correct, those are eriocaulons.
My approach is similar to yours, in the sense I keep it simple. I focus on growing plants, and only that, so everything around follows this goal. Plants.

But I had to learn lots of stuff around the gardening portion, to make sure I would be able to do it.
After you understand the CO2, fertilisation, the role biomass plays, water chemistry, water biology, plants requirements, filtering, etc, things can be simplified. But you need to know these things to be able to handle them. Like I said, I almost never test, and regardless of GH/KH/TDS, you can achieve great results with your plants. Just different routes. Fishes, shrimp, etc, are another story.

I do not want to spend time discussing technical details, I want to grow plants.


On Pogos:
Many of my background plants do not develop big roots, because I am always uprooting, pruning the bottom and replanting. This is the best looking pruning technique for some plants, specially Pogostemon Erectus. This is done every other week. I would not worry, as long as they stay down. I think the Dutch pruning, for pogos is a very good thing, or they will develop monstrous root systems, and dealing with that is not easy.

One thing I can tell you is, for the looks I going for, as in the picture, pressurized CO2 is not optional. Tried it for years. It looks good, but really different, and some plants really need it. CO2 and decent fertilisation (most of the time custom made) are fundamental.



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