UKAPS, transparency and the future.

[Ady34]

And whilst I’m on the subject

Thanks for mentioning that Iain. You really are too kind. But I couldn’t possibly claim all the credit. I think that mostly belongs to Dan, with your help of course. And to be frank no one bothered to ask me. If I remember correctly. You were both busy banning and deleting me.

I feel you are simply antagonising now.
Perhaps stop trying to continue provoking a situation in public to get a response which has no benefit to the forum moving forwards.
You have made your feelings perfectly clear and also stated that you were infact going to disengage from this thread.
Everybody knows how you feel about the situation. You actually initially left of your own accord, then re-engaged with the forum under new accounts in a completely negative and damaging way so were then banned. Then you were reinstated and continued in the same vein, and are still doing so.
We are trying to remedy the situation as a team, a depleted and busy one hence the time taken that was asked for.
I kindly ask that you stop trying to bait the team, our interests only lay on trying to salvage the forum, not conspire against anyone but figure this out. You and others do not trust, I do, the forum ran for a very long time in a developing and community based way. Upgrades were continually made to make this forum what it was. You were a huge part of the recent UKAPS years which were hugely valued by all, but then failed in one vital aspect of being part of a team in that you did not include us in the actions you took. How active we are or not, a discussion was never had and many heads are better than one. I’m sure the outcome could have been very different moving forwards for all concerned had this been actioned differently.
I know you will have a different view, but that is how I feel about it.
Thank you.
Ady.

 

[richardcunliffe]

Hadn't seen Ady's post when I wrote this..

All right chaps. We'd like to move forward here.

Tim, I can genuinely see both sides of this struggle. And I believe so can many others. Personally, I think the call for transparency is good, and should not have been censored. At the same time, a forum is about the worst place that something like this can be dealt with calmly and rationally. Or personal data shared. Simultaneously, it is the only place we have. Now people on both sides are hurting but this thread is not for venting or restating pain points. Please.

You are all generous, intelligent people who like a nice aquatic plant. You want the same things. The future and the past can be different issues if you let them. The direction we are headed is good. Simplicity is good and clarity on the identity and management of UKAPS to its members is arguably the only thing that has been missing

 

[foxfish]

So basically there has been a train of events leading up to this critical situation!

(1) A thread was created and It was suggested that certain donated funds could not be accounted for via the information available to the new administrator.

(2) The response to this was quite dramatic, resulting in a sort of private forum take over in the running!

(3) Certain long term staff members gave their opinions and pointed out the huge commitments they had given to the forum completely free of charge but the question still remained, where did the members donations actually go?

(4) Now we are several weeks on and many critical staff members have left (or no longer posting) as well as many influential members of the community.

I can completely understand why members want to know what happened to the money they gave in good faith to the forum.
I find it disappointing that some of the founder members cannot open up with more information, that would help clear up this disappointing mess!
Giving grief to the few remaining staff is surely not a positive approach?
I dont doubt the present staff are trying their very best to soldier through this situation and I thank every one of them.

So we are left in a very difficult place, it seems the forum is hanging on a thread, what staff we have left need our support and encouragement if we want the forum to continue.
However I would still like to know where the donated money ended up?

Overall I find this somewhat embarrassing situation very unfortunate but I also hope the proposed temporary forum shut down can help the staff find a way forward…..

 

[castle]

So, can we all just beg @LondonDragon to come back and be the overseer of change?

See him as the “transitioner”

 

[ostler]

feel you are simply antagonising now.
Perhaps stop trying to continue provoking a situation in public to get a response which has no benefit to the forum moving forwards.
You have made your feelings perfectly clear and also stated that you were infact going to disengage from this thread.
Everybody knows how you feel about the situation. You actually initially left of your own accord, then re-engaged with the forum under new accounts in a completely negative and damaging way so were then banned. Then you were reinstated and continued in the same vein, and are still doing so

Thanks Ady for bringing this up. I was banned, twice, for trying to expose the truth about the accounts, which apparently the rest of the membership had no right to see. This is a forum where members are supposed to be able to discuss issues in an adult way to reach a consensus. How can folk reach an informed consensus it they don't have all the information?

We are trying to remedy the situation as a team, a depleted and busy one hence the time taken that was asked for.

Yes I can see that in your own way you are doing your best, but I don't think banning another member for a difference of opinion is justifiable. It's franky totalitarian governance.

I kindly ask that you stop trying to bait the team, our interests only lay on trying to salvage the forum, not conspire against anyone but figure this out. You and others do not trust, I do, the forum ran for a very long time in a developing and community based way.

I'm not baiting anyone Ady, I'm simply responding to pretty damning accusations. But I guess I'm not allowed to do that either. Have you asked Iain to refrain from posting inflammatory statements to begin with?

but then failed in one vital aspect of being part of a team in that you did not include us in the actions you took.

Frankly Ady that's risible. You only used the forum to promote your own scaping. I don't remember much in the way of moderating being done. And that's fine, but please don't claim to have been part of a team you rarely contributed to. That's insulting.

You were a huge part of the recent UKAPS years which were hugely valued by all, but then failed in one vital aspect of being part of a team in that you did not include us in the actions you took. How active we are or not, a discussion was never had and many heads are better than one.

I told you all before, this discovery was shocking and legally there is always the chance that anyone involved could be found guilty by association or complicit, these are actual legal precedents. I didn't want to involve you for legal and moral reasons. It would have put you all in a very difficult position, especially as you're all old mates with Dan. Moreover, it would have been my head on the legal chopping block and therefore it was my decision to make and mine alone.

How active we are or not, a discussion was never had and many heads are better than one. I’m sure the outcome could have been very different moving forwards for all concerned had this been actioned differently.

How true, that is Ady, but things are always clearer in retrospect. If I'd known that this blahblahblahblah storm would result and the forum would be vulnerable to all sorts of stupid I'd have done things very differently, but consulting you all still wouldn't be one of them.

You were a huge part of the recent UKAPS years which were hugely valued by all

Thanks for saying that Ady it means a lot. When I became Admin the forum was on its knees and dying. Numbers were well down and there were only 2 sponsors left and they hadn't paid up in a couple of years. I'm not complaining, I took on the challenge happily, and gradually, obviously along with Paulo, we managed to turn the forum around. Like I mentioned before it's become a tour de force, attracting many millions of hits a month. It then got to the stage sponsors were volunteering to support the forum.

However, there is one aspect to all this that folk are either unaware of or underestimate, @foxfish touched on it above, and that is the culture that a few key members have created over the years. And it's the main reason why UKAPS has thrived when all other similar forums have gone to the wall. It's just an opinion but I think it's vitally important to UKAPS going forward and I'm not seeing much evidence that it's easily transferable.

This especially so since some of them have stopped posting since I exposed the lack of financial transparency and subsequent reluctance to hold Dan to account by the remaining mod team, claiming to have the forum's best interests at heart. Despite that, I've laid out a clear and easy way forward but this also seems to have been dismissed out of hand.

 

[ostler]

So, can we all just beg @LondonDragon to come back and be the overseer of change?

See him as the “transitioner”

Don't worry Castle, he's still very much in the driving seat. In fact none of you need to worry about the forum folding. He'll never let that happen. Neither will I if it comes to that.

 

[hypnogogia]

This isn’t helping anybody.

 

[Ady34]

Thanks Ady for bringing this up

I didn’t.

How can folk reach an informed consensus it they don't have all the information?

Many decisions have been made without a forum wide concensus, that is what the moderation team is for. We are not trying to hide anything, we are trying to work towards a more complete future. Nobody is questioning your initial concern, only the way it transpired and was actioned. Now we need to find a new and better way forward.

I'm not baiting anyone Ady,

I don’t agree.

Frankly Ady that's risible. You only used the forum to promote your own scaping. I don't remember much in the way of moderating being done. And that's fine, but please don't claim to have been part of a team you rarely contributed to. That's insulting

Sharing I think it is called, I have nothing to ‘promote’. I am still a member of the forum as a moderator. I realise I haven’t been actively moderating to a large degree over several years, but over my years on the forum have contributed to both the forum and the team. I give what I can, it is not a position based on contribution levels per se, everybody gives their time freely and it has been that way as you know since the beginning. There are many team members that aren’t consistently active in ‘duty’, yet they still remain as part of the team for any input they do have. I find it insulting that you are insinuating that my opinion is less valid than yours. If it’s ‘fine’ then why make an issue of it.

legally there is always the chance that anyone involved could be found guilty by association or complicit, these are actual legal precedents. I didn't want to involve you for legal and moral reasons. It would have put you all in a very difficult position,

now the whole forum is in that position, and we as the remaining team are now in a more difficult position. As much as you claim wrong doing, the fact that what you are asking for hasn’t been provided does not actually mean that their is any wrong doing. That is your opinion and I have mine. It should have been discussed as a team openly to try and move the forum forwards before manifesting this division within the forum. I am not saying members should not know where their money is going, what I am saying is that we could have all worked together to put something in place with far less detrimental repercussions. To my knowledge, I may be wrong as as you say I have been limited in activity, but there hasn’t been an open thread asking where and how money has been spent previously as the forum operates consistently and with improvement year on year.

If I'd known that this blahblahblahblah storm would result and the forum would be vulnerable to all sorts of stupid I'd have done things very differently, but consulting you all still wouldn't be one of them.

That says a lot and not something I sadly never thought of you.

the culture that a few key members have created over the years. And it's the main reason why UKAPS has thrived when all other similar forums have gone to the wall. It's just an opinion but I think it's vitally important to UKAPS going forward and I'm not seeing much evidence that it's easily transferable.

It has always been the same, UKAPS grew before you with very active members, and again when you were positively engaging. I commend it, forums need that enthusiasm and positivity, no one denies that. Indeed I believe that is what Iain’s thread was all about, trying to engage members into pushing forward with the enthusiasm needed as part of the UKAPS team.

I've laid out a clear and easy way forward but this also seems to have been dismissed out of hand.

As already stated elsewhere, this is already what we are doing, and as I and others have already said, we are limited on numbers and it will take time.

Anyway, I fear I have over engaged with this negative transcript enough. My feelings are clear as are yours.

 

[ostler]

If all that's true Ady, then why am I still trying to communicate with you and the rest of the forum members through a pseudonym? Why is my original account still banned?
Am I the only one that finds this faintly ridiculous? Especially if all you state about my contribution is true 🤷‍♂️

 

[ostler]

BTW it's 23:17. I thought the forum was going offline at 23:00. Or have I misunderstood?
Maybe I wasn't supposed to get the last word in.
Like i said, all kinds of stupid. . .

 

[LondonDragon]

As I have been brought back into the conversation, I will post something here before this closes, there seems to be only one thing in this thread, and its not about saving UKAPS, if more about destroying what is left of it!

So, can we all just beg @LondonDragon to come back and be the overseer of change?

See him as the “transitioner”

There is no need to use such words as beg, I left for my good reasons and I have been trying to stay out of this as much as possible, maybe I shouldn't have stopped Tim taking over the forum and banning/deleting founders, and let it self-implode anyway (if I had a second chance I would have not interfered when Dan asked), and leave Tim to own UKAPS, as it seems the ultimate goal here now, and "transitioner" to what exactly? To whom?

There is still the question about the finances, from what I have seen they look OK, figures are higher than what I thought was there, but there is nothing to back it up for the time being and only from June 2022 onward, is that enough? are people happy with that if some evidence was shown to back that up? Let's say a Zoom call and accounts shown over that, to whom? would it be enough? Transparency finances would have been nice, there was trust there for sure, you can't do something with someone for 15 years and not have trust, but yes the question is valid, where is it? show me the proof? Just the totally wrong approach and this mess could have been avoided now, but might have come up again in the future, then what? same situation!!

And transition to whom? Who is going to look after the finances now? I don't have anyone I can trust with that? Whom am I going to give the server to? I don't have anyone I can trust with that? Whom I am going to give Admin right to the forum now? I dont have anyone I can trust with that! And why should I put myself in that place, now that I had resigned before this kicked off?

The most important thing here is not even the money, is actually who owns the server, whoever owns that can do whatever they want with it, my plan was still to hold the server for the foreseeable future but let Tim look after the forum, the data is quite valuable, both the content and the user base, and one needs to be careful how that is handled.

If I was to come back in some form, I would only be interested in looking after the hosting and the server to protect the data integrity and the users, until I am happy and trust that to be handed over to someone else. I would be happy to show the reins in terms of Admin and Moderation of the forum to a new team, ideally two Admins (Tim is not one of them) and one with experience with Theming because I don't want to get involved in that any more and UKAPS needs a new Theme (visuals), but I would not want to be involved in the day to day operations of the forum side of things, I could help and I could teach!

Think about what I have said above, think how we can resolve these issues mentioned, you can PM me if you wish, I am also on Instagram.

Yes it would be sad to see UKAPS die, but I have no issues in letting it go if the above cannot be resolved. As I said to Tim before it was exposed, if it dies it dies! Everything dies in the end.....