Plant deficiencies and the Fe Experiment

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have a low gH (2-3) and higher kH (~9) coming from my tap which I think may have been causing issues with iron uptake.

The highish dKH will mean that iron (Fe++(+)) ions are mopped up to form insoluble hydroxide and carbonate, which chelator are you using?

Also, strange question, but is this the water that has been through an <"ion exchange water softener">? One that you fill up with salt (NaCl)?

cheers Darrel

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

Hi all,

The highish dKH will mean that iron (Fe++(+)) ions are mopped up to form insoluble hydroxide and carbonate, which chelator are you using?

Also, strange question, but is this the water that has been through an <"ion exchange water softener">? One that you fill up with salt (NaCl)?

cheers Darrel

I was using plantex CSM+B which uses EDTA and then supplemented with DTPA 11%. I then switched to GLA’s micros that’s chelated with both.

So funny you say that. My house is fitted with such a system but I have not rejuvenated it with salt since in bought the house 7 years ago. All it has right now is a pre filter that’s like a thick spool of string, it’s truly disgusting what I found in it after replacing it. My local water report is very limited with information and even after calling to try and get more details, I either get the run around or they claim they don’t test for specific metals.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have a low gH (2-3) and higher kH (~9) coming from my tap........... My house is fitted with such a system but I have not rejuvenated it with salt since in bought the house 7 years ago. .......... My local water report is very limited with information and even after calling to try and get more details, I either get the run around or they claim they don’t test for specific metals

Not the water softener then after 7 years, but I wonder if your water company use a <"Sodimate type"> water softening process.

Sodium bicarbonate, also commonly called soda ash, is added in excess to the water and these chemical reactions occur:

The soda ash allows the precipitation of the calcium trapped in the calcium carbonate which can then be removed through filtration or sedimentation.

Sodium (Na) is really easy to test for analytically via <"flame photometry etc">, but much more difficult by colorimetric methods, because ~all of its salts are soluble.

I was using plantex CSM+B which uses EDTA and then supplemented with DTPA 11%. I then switched to GLA’s micros that’s chelated with both.

Probably not iron (Fe) then, can we have a photo?

cheers Darrel

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

Probably not iron (Fe) then, can we have a photo?

I don’t have any recent photos unfortunately and the tank right now is neglected plant wise. Letting nature take its course without CO2 and just 6 hours of light and fish waste. The problem I was getting though was white new growth, stunting, and sometimes just melt.

 

[KirstyF]

Latest update:

0.4ppm of Fe gluconate only (split into 3 x pw dosing) is not doing the trick! 2 weeks at that dosing level and I don’t think I need to run any longer to conclude that it’s not going well!

Could be that the combination of DTPA and gluconate is more successful….as we are getting very close now to the total ppm of that combination, that worked well before….or it could be that higher level of Po4 (from 2ppm originally to 6ppm now, for those who’ve not read the whole thread) is interfering.

To give a direct comparison I’m moving to 0.4ppm of DTPA only this week…..I’ll post next week if I see any improvement and run for two weeks if I don’t (just to make sure) I’ll then re-try the combo and see what results we now get with this higher Po4 level.

Slow going I know…but eliminating options as I go along just seems to make sense.

Considering how long I’ve been torturing my poor plants, they aren’t standing up too badly.

Got some interveinal chlorosis showing up on the odd Anubias, though most are still ok at this point.

And I’m still getting a very small amount of hair algae, though we are talking just a few strands here and there. If you squint, you can just see some on these H’ra……Also note, these are as pink as they have ever been and very pretty. Treat them mean huh!! 🙄😂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

To give a direct comparison I’m moving to 0.4ppm of DTPA only this week…..I’ll post next week if I see any improvement and run for two weeks if I don’t (just to make sure)

I'm not sure even two weeks will be long enough to see healthy new leaves grow.

That was one of the reasons for originally using <"Lesser Duckweed (Lemna minor)"> in the <"Duckweed Index",> it has a very rapid turn-over of new leaves, meaning that it shows a very flexible response to increased nutrients and / or when a nutrient stops being <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">.

There are <"advantages to using Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) as your "Duckweed">, but a disadvantage is that the new leaves take longer to develop and there is a lag period before you can see that a non-mobile nutrient (like iron (Fe)) has become available again.

This was the reason I went to using a <"hybrid Duckweed Index">, where I add iron (and magnesium (Mg) on a regular basis, even if deficiency symptoms aren't showing. If the plants are iron deficient the Duckweed Index stops working, because <"new leaves will always be small and pale">, whatever the <"nutrient status of the tank is">.

cheers Darrel

 

[KirstyF]

Hi all,

I'm not sure even two weeks will be long enough to see healthy new leaves grow.

That was one of the reasons for originally using <"Lesser Duckweed (Lemna minor)"> in the <"Duckweed Index",> it has a very rapid turn-over of new leaves, meaning that it shows a very flexible response to increased nutrients and / or when a nutrient stops being <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">.

There are <"advantages to using Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) as your "Duckweed">, but a disadvantage is that the new leaves take longer to develop and there is a lag period before you can see that a non-mobile nutrient (like iron (Fe)) has become available again.

This was the reason I went to using a <"hybrid Duckweed Index">, where I add iron (and magnesium (Mg) on a regular basis, even if deficiency symptoms aren't showing. If the plants are iron deficient the Duckweed Index stops working, because <"new leaves will always be small and pale">, whatever the <"nutrient status of the tank is">.

cheers Darrel

It’s a fair point Darrel and I’ll run as long as I need to, to get valid results.

I’m curious your thoughts on when is a new leaf not a new leaf? If a ‘young’ leaf is still developing, can you expect to see an improvement in that leaf ‘health’ in event that a non-mobile deficient nutrient becomes available? and, if so, at what point does that stop? 🤔

 

[hypnogogia]

Got some interveinal chlorosis showing up on the odd Anubias, though most are still ok at this point.

Interesting that you’re seeing it on such slow growing plants…could that be a result of an earlier “condition” in your experiment?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I’m curious your thoughts on when is a new leaf not a new leaf? If a ‘young’ leaf is still developing, can you expect to see an improvement in that leaf ‘health’ in event that a non-mobile deficient nutrient becomes available? and, if so, at what point does that stop?

Assuming that this really is iron (Fe) deficiency in Pogostemon helferi, and I think it probably is, then @Zeus. 's <"Future of Aquascaping"> image shows that it really is a very sharp divide between "available" and "non-available".

Here is another one <"Solufeed 2:1:4 and Solufeed Sodium Free TEC Combination">

Photo of Pogostemon Helferi after stoping dosing DTPA for a week, then starting again

Using Amazon Frogbit I think you basically get a new leaf that is either <"iron deficient"> (below), or isn't.

cheers Darrel

 

[KirstyF]

Hi all,

Assuming that this really is iron (Fe) deficiency in Pogostemon helferi, and I think it probably is, then @Zeus. 's <"Future of Aquascaping"> image shows that it really is a very sharp divide between "available" and "non-available".

Here is another one <"Solufeed 2:1:4 and Solufeed Sodium Free TEC Combination">

Using Amazon Frogbit I think you basically get a new leaf that is either <"iron deficient"> (below), or isn't.

cheers Darrel

Helferi is a good example as it kindly grows a nicely visible ‘set’ of new leaves, so I guess what I’m getting at is - We see differences in leaf sets but we don’t see half a leaf that is green right!, There is not a leaf that starts out deficient and then becomes non deficient so whatever we see, it appears to be based on that individual leaf structure (though stripy leaves would be kinda cool! 😂) @keef321 stopped dosing DTPA for one week, during which we can assume that the white leaves started to grow. Did those white leaves grow to their full size within that 7 day period, or, if the leaves start growing in deficiency, will they continue to grow out as white leaves and then we only see the green growth on the next set. Is there therefore a ‘switch’ beyond which point, the ‘new’ leaf is unable to benefit from an improvement in ferts and how early is that switch. If @keef had increased his dosing when those white leaves were just 2 or 3 or 5 or 10mm long, would they still have grown to full size as white leaves or would they have growth through green or at least, greener, as they were still able to derive some benefit from the enhanced nutrients. 🤔

If you were ever able to get a Val to be similarly deficient, would you see white leaves that stayed white and still grew 5ft long? 😊

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

There is not a leaf that starts out deficient and then becomes non deficient so whatever we see, it appears to be based on that individual leaf structure (though stripy leaves would be kinda cool! 😂) @keef321 stopped dosing DTPA for one week, during which we can assume that the white leaves started to grow. Did those white leaves grow to their full size within that 7 day period, or, if the leaves start growing in deficiency, will they continue to grow out as white leaves and then we only see the green growth on the next set. Is there therefore a ‘switch’ beyond which point, the ‘new’ leaf is unable to benefit from an improvement in ferts and how early is that switch

Unfortunately I just don't know enough about the physiology of leaf formation. This was what @Hufsa observed.

The Pogostemon helferi is doing a little bit of greening, it has even filled out some green in some existing leaves. Its a little bit difficult to see in the pictures though. I know we say iron is immobile and will only show up in new leaves, but I think the plant does not see new and old quite so binary and there might be a gradient between what is considered new and old leaves.

I'll see what I can find, but I'm going to guess it is a modular process, and the new leaf is already "constructed" before in unfurls.

This is from <"https://www.researchgate.net/public...af_Adaxial-Abaxial_Boundary_and_Lamina_Growth">**

Schematic views of leaf development. (A) The overview of dicot leaf development. Leaf primordia are illustrated in the top view and the front view, and black lines show the borderlines between the individual sectors sharing a common origin in the incipient primordium. Light pink shows the region of indeterminate margin cells, and magenta shows the region of differentiated margin cells. Dashed lines show the B/P junction. (B–E) Schematic views of four steps during leaf development. First, the initiation of leaf primordia (indicated as ―Lp‖) starts through the recruitment of the founder cells from the peripheral zone of the SAM, (B) and then, the initiated leaf primordium grows predominantly in the distal direction (C). Subsequently, the blade region (indicated as ―B‖) the petiole region (indicated as ―P‖) are specified on the basis of the distance from the margin, (D) and finally, the leaf blade expands towards both the distal and lateral directions (E). Red arrows in (B–E) show the direction of leaf growth.

We have actually been down this route before, <"but not seriously"> in a thread we both contributed to.

though stripy leaves would be kinda cool!

You can get stripes with monocotyledons, this is Maize (Zea mays) <"showing longitudinal stripes"> as a result of iron (Fe) deficiency. <"Leaf growth in dicots and monocots: so different yet so alike">*.

**Nakata, Miyuki & Okada, Kiyotaka. (2013). "The Leaf Adaxial-Abaxial Boundary and Lamina Growth". Plants. 2. pp 174-202.
*Hilde Nelissen, Nathalie Gonzalez, Dirk Inzé, (2016) "Leaf growth in dicots and monocots: so different yet so alike", Current Opinion in Plant Biology,
33, pp 72-76.

cheers Darrel

 

[KirstyF]

Interesting that you’re seeing it on such slow growing plants…could that be a result of an earlier “condition” in your experiment?

I suspect probably just the same condition, as such. This is a newer leaf and, whilst I started this thread around 5 weeks ago, the experiments were ongoing at that time, so the tank has been at some level of deficient for around 9 weeks now. I guess that’s long enough for even the slow joes to throw up a new leaf here and there.

The older leaves on this plant are still green, but I’ll do some more pics of the whole plant next weekend so you guys can see the comparison. 😊

 

[KirstyF]

Hi all,

Unfortunately I just don't know enough about the physiology of leaf formation. This was what @Hufsa observed.

I'll see what I can find, but I'm going to guess it is a modular process, and the new leaf is already "constructed" before in unfurls.

This is from <"https://www.researchgate.net/public...af_Adaxial-Abaxial_Boundary_and_Lamina_Growth">

We have actually been down this route before, <"but not seriously"> in a thread we both contributed to.

You can get stripes with monocotyledons, this is Maize (Zea mays) <"showing longitudinal stripes"> as a result of iron (Fe) deficiency. <"Leaf growth in dicots and monocots: so different yet so alike">*.

Hilde Nelissen, Nathalie Gonzalez, Dirk Inzé, (2016) "Leaf growth in dicots and monocots: so different yet so alike", Current Opinion in Plant Biology,
33, pp 72-76.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel 😊 That photographic memory of yours is amazing. 🥰

I’ll have a swizz through these later and see what I missed. 👍

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

That photographic memory of yours is amazing.

I'm still pretty good with plants (and moths), but after that <"it rapidly degenerates">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Using Amazon Frogbit I think you basically get a new leaf that is either <"iron deficient"> (below), or isn't.

I've been thinking about this, mainly in light of a more complete understanding of the Maize (Zea mays) photo, and because "Amazon Frogbit" (Limnobium laevigatum) is <"also a monocotyledon">.

I think that the mode of leaf formation in monocots is actually the reason for the <"reticulated pattern of decay"> in iron deficient Amazon Frogbit leaves. It isn't so obviously "stripes", because it is a much rounder leaf.

Unsurprisingly I could find anything about Amazon Frogbit specifically, but I found a page about nutrient deficiencies in Taro (Colocasia esculenta)
<"https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SCM-4.pdf">.

cheers Darrel

 

[keef321]

Hi all,

I've been thinking about this, mainly in light of a more complete understanding of the Maize (Zea mays) photo, and because "Amazon Frogbit" (Limnobium laevigatum) is <"also a monocotyledon">.

I think that the mode of leaf formation in monocots is actually the reason for the <"reticulated pattern of decay"> in iron deficient Amazon Frogbit leaves. It isn't so obviously "stripes", because it is a much rounder leaf.

Unsurprisingly I could find anything about Amazon Frogbit specifically, but I found a page about nutrient deficiencies in Taro (Colocasia esculenta)
<"https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SCM-4.pdf">.

View attachment 200790

cheers Darrel

I've been using the Frogbit / duckweed now for some time, and so far it has been very reliable . Mine originally looked like the Frogbit in your photo's and were just melting away. With Iron they are now much more of a uniformed dark green, and with upping my fertiliser to Full EI levels has all but eliminated the tiger stripes on the frogbit, so I must have had a bit of another deficiency with it, ......or the extra iron in the all in one fert has also helped. Either way it certainly helped.

My experience with the Pogostemon Helferi within the first week of stopping dosing Iron you get bleaching at the center of the plant, where the new leaves are forming. another 6-7 days and you have completely new white leaves forming from the center and some bleaching out it appears into surrounding leaves. Not long after this, I then re-introduced the iron. Within 10-14 days time you now have new green growth forming in the centre, with the leaves underneath still bleached white. They continue being bleached, although maybe recover a bit of colour, but it's hard to tell as by this point, the leaves are getting attacked & covered by algae, and getting holes in them. I have some photo's of this process, and will try and upload them at some point.

Interestingly I had a fast growing stem plant, Hygrophilia Siamensis 53B, that showed some deficiency first, with the already green but young leaves (the ones at the top / head of the plant), bleaching out at the tips!!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I've been using the Frogbit / duckweed now for some time, and so far it has been reliable.

I'm pleased it has worked for you. I'm (<"probably absurdly">) proud of it, and, my ego and I, are going to have a much <"happier afternoon now">.

........ I <"don't have anything to sell">, or any agenda. If people use the <"Duckweed Index">, or like a post, it might massage my ego, but it doesn't make me any wealthier. I'm not entirely convinced that <"every-body, who posts, has the same aims">..........

Mine originally looked like the Frogbit in your photo's and were just melting away. With Iron they are now much more of a uniformed dark green

The only exception we've found to the "pale new leaves = iron deficiency" is in @Hufsa's case. Her plants turned out to be <"manganese (Mn) deficient">. I'm guessing that her's is a special case, because they have a very pure tap supply, that is pretty much DI water and really doesn't contain anything in the way of trace minerals.

With Iron they are now much more of a uniformed dark green, and with upping my fertiliser to Full EI levels has all but eliminated the tiger stripes on the frogbit, so I must have had a bit of another deficiency with it

Yes, we are not sure exactly what causes the tiger striping in <"Limnobium laevigatum">. I've seen a couple of pots of Tropica in vitro Amazon Frogbit and one thing I noticed was that they <"were notably stripy">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

I've been using the Frogbit / duckweed now for some time, and so far it has been very reliable . Mine originally looked like the Frogbit in your photo's and were just melting away. With Iron they are now much more of a uniformed dark green, and with upping my fertiliser to Full EI levels has all but eliminated the tiger stripes on the frogbit, so I must have had a bit of another deficiency with it, ......or the extra iron in the all in one fert has also helped. Either way it certainly helped.

My experience with the Pogostemon Helferi within the first week of stopping dosing Iron you get bleaching at the center of the plant, where the new leaves are forming. another 6-7 days and you have completely new white leaves forming from the center and some bleaching out it appears into surrounding leaves. Not long after this, I then re-introduced the iron. Within 10-14 days time you now have new green growth forming in the centre, with the leaves underneath still bleached white. They continue being bleached, although maybe recover a bit of colour, but it's hard to tell as by this point, the leaves are getting attacked & covered by algae, and getting holes in them. I have some photo's of this process, and will try and upload them at some point.

Interestingly I had a fast growing stem plant, Hygrophilia Siamensis 53B, that showed some deficiency first, with the already green but young leaves (the ones at the top / head of the plant), bleaching out at the tips!!
View attachment 201017

These symptoms with the exact same plants is what I was experiencing. Makes me think even more it was a lack of availability of iron in my higher kH environment

 

[keef321]

A bit of an update. 6 weeks ago I changed my dosing , my water parameters are GH is 13, KH 10, PH before gas 7.6 (degassed 8.0-8.1), after gas 6.8-6.9. With my all in one fert I am currently dosing

N	26.25
P	3.5
K	87.5
Mg	14
Fe EDTA	1.4
Mn	0.32

I also add 1ppm DPTA iron.
I reduced the DTPA iron to 0.5ppm and started dosing 0.5ppm seachem iron.
I have have noticed some real greening of the plants, and my stem plants will now also more readily branch of with new growth, that rarely happened in the past.
One could argue that this is not a fair trial, as I had increased my overall all-in-one ferts to full EI levels now (or as near as I can using TNC Complete). But I did a test a stopped using the seachem iron, and got deficiency signs appearing again.
Now I have some FeEDDHA 7% power that I have made into a liquid (thanks to assistance from the nice people in this forum), and am going to add a dose of 0.021ppm per week and see if this produces any noticeable changes.

 

[_Maq_]

I'm pleased it has worked for you. I'm (<"probably absurdly">) proud of it, and, my ego and I, are going to have a much <"happier afternoon now">.

Keep on preaching, Father!
Do you happen to have pics showing how phosphorus deficiency looks like on your natural detection apparatus?