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A reflection - putting it all into one scape

And I thought my water was hard!!!

Interesting.
Whilst I have only been more recently experimenting with different stems. My experience so far has been that they have still grown better planted in what is now 11 month old aquasoil than they have in newer (lightly pre-used) aquasoil in pots. Yet you would expect less ‘top up’ to be available.
Give the details! What column dosing are you doing?
This was certainly the case with Cobomba and I now have Ludwigia White and Eusteralis Stellata in both mediums but only been in a couple of weeks so results remain to be seen.

I also have plants such as Crypts and Blyxa growing well in inert substrate where richer soil is often recommended; though I would have to say that whilst playing with Micros I was quickly able to induce a pretty good case of Chlorosis in both the Cobomba and the Blyxa by dropping to 0.1ppm Iron (weekly) Taking it back to 0.3ppm (50% DTPA/50% Gluconate) resolved the issue.
Could have been that with substrate, the chlorosis would have taken more extremes to see. Your column targets must be “good”.
Anyhow, I won’t de-rail ur thread any further. 😊 Certainly watching this one with interest and it offers plenty of food for thought. 👍
Please do de rail it (and not really a de rail at all). If anything, it will help.
 
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Give the details! What column dosing are you doing?

Could have been that with substrate, the chlorosis would have taken more extremes to see. Your column targets must be “good”.

Please do de rail it (and not really a de rail at all). If anything, it will help.

Well I started out on full EI, so was just dosing the below on top of tap.
No3 30ppm
Po4 3ppm
K 30ppm
Mg 10ppm

Switched the Po4 up as far as 8ppm to try to resolve some gsa specifically on slow growers, but with no notable improvement. Moving them to shadier spots helps. 😏

But I’ve been playing a lot with ferts as, amongst other things, it’s good learning. and so I’m now dosing:

Macro
No3 0ppm (but have 30 plus in tap)
Po4 2ppm (tap unknown)
K 10ppm (tap unknown)
Mg 5ppm (some additional in tap assumed)
Have been reducing over a period of time and still experimenting with this. This particular mix has only been in use for around 3 weeks. Not noted any signs of deficiency yet.

Micro has had a bit more work.
It was:
Fe 0.5ppm DTPA
Mn 0.1
B 0.06
Mo 0.009
Zn 0.07
Cu 0.014

And is now:
Fe 0.3 (0.15 DTPA and 0.15 Gluconate)
Mn 0.1
B 0.02
Mo 0.005
Zn 0.02
Cu 0.006
Plants seem pretty happy with this Micro at the moment.

Co2 is, and has been, a fairly standard 1ph drop pretty much throughout,
 
Well I started out on full EI, so was just dosing the below on top of tap.
No3 30ppm
Po4 3ppm
K 30ppm
Mg 10ppm

Switched the Po4 up as far as 8ppm to try to resolve some gsa specifically on slow growers, but with no notable improvement. Moving them to shadier spots helps. 😏
I wonder if this dosing regime minus the nitrate (so let your tap use it all) with the PO4 high will outperform or get rid of GSA more so than the new one.
But I’ve been playing a lot with ferts as, amongst other things, it’s good learning. and so I’m now dosing:

Macro
No3 0ppm (but have 30 plus in tap)
Po4 2ppm (tap unknown)
K 10ppm (tap unknown)
Mg 5ppm (some additional in tap assumed)
Have been reducing over a period of time and still experimenting with this. This particular mix has only been in use for around 3 weeks. Not noted any signs of deficiency yet.
GSA? Can you put a slow grower back in the light and see if it remedies or gets worse?
Micro has had a bit more work.
It was:
Fe 0.5ppm DTPA
Mn 0.1
B 0.06
Mo 0.009
Zn 0.07
Cu 0.014

And is now:
Fe 0.3 (0.15 DTPA and 0.15 Gluconate)
Mn 0.1
B 0.02
Mo 0.005
Zn 0.02
Cu 0.006
Plants seem pretty happy with this Micro at the moment.
Makes sense right - if you dosed like me .015 proxy, probably get deficiency (like you saw at .1 instead of .3).
Co2 is, and has been, a fairly standard 1ph drop pretty much throughout,
Ya I’d just leave it like this too.
 
Ran myself into a pickle.

Daily water changes … had to water change evening after co2 was off 2 hours (no issues Ps) and the problem is ferts back in to targets and even though only an hour left and co2 enriches water and exposure to air, I was chicken 😂.

Turned co2 back on until end of photoperiod.

Let’s see what tomorrow brings. Might have to do my turning off co2 early test once the tank is established … or … not be a chicken.

It would’ve been fine but I just couldn’t do it 😂.
 
I wonder if this dosing regime minus the nitrate (so let your tap use it all) with the PO4 high will outperform or get rid of GSA more so than the new one.

I’ve wondered this myself. I’m looking to probably run the new one for another 3 weeks, which should eliminate any previous excesses (particularly nitrate) and create a more stable ‘fresh slate’ to work from. (Unless I see any negative reaction of course, in which case I’ll review) I like to know my baselines so that if things go horribly wrong I can revert to the last point of ‘happy plants’ without causing too much damage.

I can then play with Po4 and/or K to assess responses. If I can get more tolerance for higher light in my slow growers I’d be a happy girl. I’m guessing there’s probably a limit to that but I’m not blasting the tank with light so…..we’ll see.
 
I’ve wondered this myself. I’m looking to probably run the new one for another 3 weeks, which should eliminate any previous excesses (particularly nitrate) and create a more stable ‘fresh slate’ to work from. (Unless I see any negative reaction of course, in which case I’ll review) I like to know my baselines so that if things go horribly wrong I can revert to the last point of ‘happy plants’ without causing too much damage.
Why don’t you just do back to back waters in the same day to reset the column. Dose the new targets you want. And repeat this for a few days. That will balance the system faster than 3 weeks id say if time is what you want to “steal”. The excess nitrates will be stored in the plants but if you’re dosing 60NO3 and dropping the dose to 30 NO3 … this is still pretty rich 😂. And the higher PO4 will help drive the NO3 stores to empty faster than the leaner PO4.

I’d bet (but I want to see what happens as I may be wrong) the lower N higher P higher K higher Mg - Ca fixed with tap will yield better results.
I can then play with Po4 and/or K to assess responses. If I can get more tolerance for higher light in my slow growers I’d be a happy girl. I’m guessing there’s probably a limit to that but I’m not blasting the tank with light so…..we’ll see.
In all those photos I posted, we have a combination of fresh substrate, exhausted substrate, all extremes of water change (daily, weekly, monthly, never), temp swings (high temp and low temp), 5x EI, 100+ K, GH 2-10, KH 1-5, and 0-1 Nitrate/Phosphate in column — the buce and Anubias I had grew under every condition but @Geoffrey Rea grew Anubias in that ONF x2 tank without any issues … do you know his targets at the time @KirstyF or maybe he can just pop them in here for us
 
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Why don’t you just do back to back waters in the same day to reset the column. Dose the new targets you want. And repeat this for a few days. That will balance the system faster than 3 weeks id say if time is what you want to “steal”. The excess nitrates will be stored in the plants but if you’re dosing 60NO3 and dropping the dose to 30 NO3 … this is still pretty rich 😂. And the higher PO4 will help drive the NO3 stores to empty faster than the leaner PO4.

Well there’s a whole bunch of logic in that. 😊
But do you know how long it takes to do back to backs on a 700ltr 😳😂

I’m also generally only home Fri evenings and weekends (I’m mostly in London during the week)

And…..I’m a little curious to see if the tank starts complaining about these numbers. 🤔

I might try to pop in a double change next weekend though. My tank nitrate is still just a bit higher than tap at the minute and I’d like to at least get that pretty close to even. 😊
 
What I noticed on algaes.

When the plant is growing in pristine (top to bottom) condition:
Lots of ferts doesn't cause "visible" algae.
Lots of CO2 doesn't cause "visible" algae.
Lots of light doesn't cause "visible" algae.

This state of pristineness means that everything is getting what they need in proper demand. The plants seem to be able to adapt within reason to accomodate all of these states and variances in them within reason (color change, leaf size, leaf orientiation, etc).

When that demand get's skewed (from any of the 3 above), such that the plant can't adapt anymore to accomodate it, then the algaes appear.

Some of these adaptions included major structural deformities (I recall rotala rotundifolia growing with holes etc under rich column conditions with exhausted substrate ... they didn't show up when the substrate was rich) --- all of those without the presence of algae - it was absolutely bizarre

Then I was digging through and found my old post:
1664815614606.png

Honing it in? Obsessing? It looks ok from my couch - but not up close ... and this one Did something eat these?

More to come!
 
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Here it is (first draft):

Algae is an important indicator for how many things we have done wrong.

Something is missing in the plant … not about what we give it but what the plant can actually take. Example, you have access to a trust fund, but you aren’t old enough to get the cash. You dose iron, but the plant can’t absorb it. You have nice sneakers, but no feet.


To correct algae: Basically every argument/plan of attack has this: adjust ferts, CO2, or light.

The goal is for everything to be running properly - decreasing light reduces O2 evolution and metabolism (which cleans up nasties from water column (especially if we get things running properly)), so it isn’t a smart option.

My choice is ferts or CO2 (always Flow should be optimized first). If your flow is bad and you cannot change it, then just change ferts, since you will likely be able to get away with less optimal flow to adapt to different ferts anyways.

On CO2, if it is already maxed (and flow is bang on): 1) you kill livestock 2) you drop pH too far affecting plant mechanism and/or bacteria.

Ferts also give you lots of O2 evolution (up to max growth), but when paired with low light, it is not healthy.

An EI system with rich substrate and highlight properly running is the healthiest system around. But it is hard to get the healthy plant forms under EI without driving the system hard. If something is lacking, then it gets less healthy.


Ok:
We have two different kinds of algaes (ones like plants and ones less like plants)


1) Ones like plants

In order of how “how off the mark you are" from least to greatest:

i) Green thread

To correct: Increase water column dosing a bit (at whatever concoction you are using). Or just leave it and hope the plants adapt and we trim away old, affected growth.

ii) Green Spot Algae
Less common on stems (access to soil) and more common on epiphytes (more sensitive to column dosing).

I have never seen it on stem plants that have access to soil … on inert, yes.

Go to ferts: Fix your column targets - increase or decrease GH, play with NO3/PO4 … K will only help when there is soil around (probably). Bring them as close to the boundaries as we set out here: A reflection - putting it all into one scape

iii) Beard algae

Again, pretty rare on stems in rich soil.
Black beard algae turns green under higher light.

To correct: After CO2, fix your column targets.

2) Ones less like plants

These are protists like things so point to issues in microbial complexes and probably plants will show issues and other algaes shortly thereafter too.

What to bacteria things need?: O2 and pH. This is why we fix light at 100 - maximize O2 when everything else is on point.

i) Diatoms

More light and temp to speed up the maturation process. High light tanks from startup rarely see diatoms, if ever. If they do something else wrong, other algaes show up.

ii) Green Dust Algae

pH too low (waiting three weeks sometimes work … maybe because the plants grow in and use up the CO2). Ease off the CO2. If your CO2 is off, then you will get other algaes in response to this … then you need to look elsewhere and then perhaps that fix will increase CO2 consumption and then likely fix the pH issue.

iii) Cyano

Increase all column fert – just NO3 may skew the overall balance promoting other issues … but it may also bring the tank back to balance for a period of time until substrate runs out …

iv) Staghorn

Something seriously bad happened. There will be more algae to follow this one - a phase of establishment. Give it time to let it settle and see if anything else comes up. Start with light. Normally BBA follows if you don’t fix the root issue.
 
Here it is (first draft):

Algae is an important indicator for how many things we have done wrong.

Something is missing in the plant … not about what we give it but what the plant can actually take. Example, you have access to a trust fund, but you aren’t old enough to get the cash. You dose iron, but the plant can’t absorb it. You have nice sneakers, but no feet.


To correct algae: Basically every argument/plan of attack has this: adjust ferts, CO2, or light.

The goal is for everything to be running properly - decreasing light reduces O2 evolution and metabolism (which cleans up nasties from water column (especially if we get things running properly)), so it isn’t a smart option.

My choice is ferts or CO2 (always Flow should be optimized first). If your flow is bad and you cannot change it, then just change ferts, since you will likely be able to get away with less optimal flow to adapt to different ferts anyways.

On CO2, if it is already maxed (and flow is bang on): 1) you kill livestock 2) you drop pH too far affecting plant mechanism and/or bacteria.

Ferts also give you lots of O2 evolution (up to max growth), but when paired with low light, it is not healthy.

An EI system with rich substrate and highlight properly running is the healthiest system around. But it is hard to get the healthy plant forms under EI without driving the system hard. If something is lacking, then it gets less healthy.


Ok:
We have two different kinds of algaes (ones like plants and ones less like plants)


1) Ones like plants

In order of how “how off the mark you are" from least to greatest:

i) Green thread

To correct: Increase water column dosing a bit (at whatever concoction you are using). Or just leave it and hope the plants adapt and we trim away old, affected growth.

ii) Green Spot Algae
Less common on stems (access to soil) and more common on epiphytes (more sensitive to column dosing).

I have never seen it on stem plants that have access to soil … on inert, yes.

Go to ferts: Fix your column targets - increase or decrease GH, play with NO3/PO4 … K will only help when there is soil around (probably). Bring them as close to the boundaries as we set out here: A reflection - putting it all into one scape

iii) Beard algae

Again, pretty rare on stems in rich soil.
Black beard algae turns green under higher light.

To correct: After CO2, fix your column targets.

2) Ones less like plants

These are protists like things so point to issues in microbial complexes and probably plants will show issues and other algaes shortly thereafter too.

What to bacteria things need?: O2 and pH. This is why we fix light at 100 - maximize O2 when everything else is on point.

i) Diatoms

More light and temp to speed up the maturation process. High light tanks from startup rarely see diatoms, if ever. If they do something else wrong, other algaes show up.

ii) Green Dust Algae

pH too low (waiting three weeks sometimes work … maybe because the plants grow in and use up the CO2). Ease off the CO2. If your CO2 is off, then you will get other algaes in response to this … then you need to look elsewhere and then perhaps that fix will increase CO2 consumption and then likely fix the pH issue.

iii) Cyano

Increase all column fert – just NO3 may skew the overall balance promoting other issues … but it may also bring the tank back to balance for a period of time until substrate runs out …

iv) Staghorn

Something seriously bad happened. There will be more algae to follow this one - a phase of establishment. Give it time to let it settle and see if anything else comes up. Start with light. Normally BBA follows if you don’t fix the root issue.

Hi @JoshP12 Love your posts. I literally spend quality time trying to extract as much information as I can - sort of like figuring a partial differential equation. ;) ... I think a bit more verbiage or verbosity might help more people :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Hi @JoshP12 Love your posts. I literally spend quality time trying to extract as much information as I can - sort of like figuring a partial differential equation. ;)
Glad they are useful!
... I think a bit more verbiage or verbosity might help more people :)

Cheers,
Michael
Appreciate it. You know when I was in uni, I used to write these extremely long and rigorous proofs. My prof, said the proof is fine but it’s a bit verbose - you can omit the obvious things. I said, how do you know what is obvious and what is not 😂. It took me a while but I figured it out haha.

Even in my personal writing, I’ve moved to using “too many” (my wife’s words) dangling modifiers.

I’d be happy to flesh anything out more rigorously but didn’t want to bog down the main post there.

Anything specific you can think of? I think between the algae and characterization post, it covers most big ideas (now we can get specific … while I do daily water changes ugh lol?
 
To correct algae: Basically every argument/plan of attack has this: adjust ferts, CO2, or light.
Don't underestimate the fourth pillar. Maintenance/Horticulture.

Water changes, substrate maintenance, trimming, pruning, removal of dead/decaying plant matter, controlling plant mass, controlling shading, flow, filter cleaning, etc.

IMO get these right and the others all become easier. The benefits of old fashioned elbow grease is under rated. It's the one thing that the best tanks that I follow have in common.
 
Don't underestimate the fourth pillar. Maintenance/Horticulture.
Yes - but I don't know if it's a pillar .... more so a tool? Humor me.
Water changes, substrate maintenance, trimming, pruning, removal of dead/decaying plant matter, controlling plant mass, controlling shading, flow, filter cleaning, etc.
Do all that stuff and all it does is make CO2 and light implementation more effective ... ?

Certainly, if your maintenance sucks, then your plants will respond to any changes poorly (and poor mainteanance inheritly skews CO2/light efficacy and ferts since it's all connected to flow). So you have these inherity changes (also with ammonia build up driving demands etc), and the inability for the plant to respond.
IMO get these right and the others all become easier. The benefits of old fashioned elbow grease is under rated. It's the one thing that the best tanks that I follow have in common.
Now who cares about all that stuff - since this advice is gold.

So, maintenance is key but I think it's because of its influence on the three things I mentioned.


If someone knows their mainteance stinks, you can design a tank to circumvent the issues.
 
Glad they are useful!

Hi @JoshP12,

For sure. I suppose what I was alluring to was more elaboration.

Appreciate it. You know when I was in uni, I used to write these extremely long and rigorous proofs. My prof, said the proof is fine but it’s a bit verbose - you can omit the obvious things. I said, how do you know what is obvious and what is not 😂. It took me a while but I figured it out haha.
Well, in an academic setting among peers where everyone is supposed to be on the same page, terseness and brevity are often the desired way to communicate findings and ideas.

The section on algae seems very hard to follow. Diatoms for instance, are pretty common in new immature tanks regardless of tech and light levels. GSA seems to be mostly attacking slow(er) growers regardless of whether they are in soil or not - increasing PO4 appears to help, but it remain unclear to me exactly what the interaction is - you can certainly have very low PO4 levels and no GSA (as a matter of fact you can be low (or lean rather) on everything and never see GSA, but if they show up you can eradicate them with high PO4 for a period of time and lower the dosing when they are gone. Never felt there was a need to increase GH or fiddle with NO3 levels (?).

Regards,
Michael
 
Hi @JoshP12,

For sure. I suppose what I was alluring to was more elaboration.

Well, in an academic setting among peers where everyone is supposed to be on the same page, terseness and brevity are often the desired way to communicate findings and ideas.
I’m sorry - went back and re read my message - hope it wasn’t perceived as I omittted the obvious … was not my intention whatsoever and I did omit quite a bit …maneuvering it myself too so I don’t actually know.

But I’ll get more details drafted.

Honestly, like the title, I’m trying to put it all together and not sure how.
The section on algae seems very hard to follow. Diatoms for instance, are pretty common in new immature tanks regardless of tech and light levels.

GSA seems to be mostly attacking slow(er) growers regardless of whether they are in soil or not - increasing PO4 appears to help, but it remain unclear to me exactly what the interaction is - you can certainly have very low PO4 levels and no GSA (as a matter of fact you can be low (or lean rather) on everything and never see GSA, but if they show up you can eradicate them with high PO4 for a period of time and lower the dosing when they are gone. Never felt there was a need to increase GH or fiddle with NO3 levels (?).

Regards,
Michael

I think I have some ideas to share here - will do it soon,
 
Again, do apologize @MichaelJ.

Can confirm that I have diatoms! So high light does not rule them out (though may decrease the probability that they show). I only have them near (on the substrate) the extremely damaged Monte Carlo .

The Rotala/arcuata area is completely clear and thriving and all Monte Carlo that is growing is clear.

Of course, the area with the worst flow showed the diatoms first … coincidence?

I don’t disagree with much of what you said re: not needing to adjust certain parameters to see results. I think the intuition is something along the lines of: EI in hard water is lean in soft water and EI in soft water is 3x EI in hard water. But I’m grasping at words. The implications could be also on time - if this iteration of phosphate addition and removal happened over and over, would issues be worse the further down the line?

Would adjusting other parameters at the same time as PO4 not “solve” the issue (as you could solve it in an easier way - just PO4) but would it preserve the state of the tank longer?

But there are outliers that say PO4 and CO2 don’t fix my algae so what do I do? I think In these cases, we lean to fixing the column targets? If adding PO4 fixes it and you are going to tear it down next month after the photo shoot, it makes no difference, but long term, gorgeous tanks - different story.
 
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Again, do apologize @MichaelJ.
No worries, and none needed :) Just trying to see if we can get a bit more elaboration and color out of your posts :) ... you obviously know a lot about this topic. Keep it up👍


@JoshP12 , you're in good company :lol:
[/QUOTE]

“The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.”
- Niels Bohr



Must be from the 1927 Solvay Conference if I remember correctly. Bohr was really up Einsteins nose about the inherent unpredictably of Quantum Mechanics - which Einstein never fully accepted to Bohr's dismay. Of course, Einstein was wrong, but he was wrong in profoundly positive way that sharpened the theory of QM a great deal.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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No it IS a pillar. If you don't get it right, then CO2, ferts, and light can't save you. It should be #1 on the list of things that are discussed. It's easily the most common thing that the best in the hobby have in common.
maintenance influences:
1) flow (and co2)
2) light (shading)
3) debris build up - N/P

If you have wet/dry and weir, your maintenance is easier than someone with just a canister - you have better nitrification, better oxygenation, higher turnover and lower velocity.

If your distribution/turnover is better than someone else tank, it can withstand some delays in trimming before showing signs of co2 issue because it the water can move more co2 without being bogged down by leaves.

If you dose light N/P, the debris accumulation will dose more for you … and if you have good flow and co2 is decent, I mean you should be able to meet the demand?

The tank can’t dictate our maintenance schedule … when we are the ones who put everything into it … can go as far and say don’t put your macrandras in the middle of a field of HRA and Rotala green due to different demands. Or don’t put your erio in the worst flow and most shaded area of your tank - this is just not smart (or you will need to do more maintenance to preserve your plants).

We can design a tank to fit our maintenance schedule and that includes the light, ferts, and flow we provide.

Or you do things to make maintenance easier (this is the best imo and is exactly what I did with the hidden pump). I have done nothing except turn on and off a smart plug and open and close a valve (ok and hit the doser and toss in some seachem safe) during this startup maintenance wise. I put my arm in once.

You can even argue that EI dosed although more challenging to get right, is actually 100x more stable than leanly dosed (all in lower GH water) … because it is. And it just so happens that to get EI dosing “right”, you need to get co2 right … and the largest influencer of that is maintenance …

But if you can’t get EI levels “right”, then pull off and the rest will become easier to get right with the same maintenance.

Spend a weekend like I just did hanging out with a bunch of the best of the planted tank world and it only served to reinforce my feelings on this.
Saw that - looked like a blast!
 
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