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Reconstituters....

Hi,
how are people measuring the amounts used? I can understand how you quantify what’s going in, but what is being used to measure the consumption?
Thanks
Ady.

There's not much else than trial and error for me and watching the plants

I know what IS normal and what ISN'T growth - I just don't know how to correlate the abnormal growth to a cause. So I either leave a mineral out, or add one in and try every which way I can. If I suspect there might be an excess of anything I do a few massive water changes and reset the tank.

This was the whole point of this thread initially - I wanted to make up my water with exact amounts from scratch so using Zorfox's absolutely excellent calculator, the great advice on this thread from members and, buying in the base minerals, I could make up water with different combinations of minerals and macros without adding anything extra (like sodium) - in fact, sodium I'd say is at trace levels if anything. Just an example of something I thought WAS a problem but turned out not to be. I'm still leaving it out though.

But what you're saying about consumption - I for example guess (which is the best I can do without taking any measurements) magnesium is consumed at 1ppm a week. SO I will start adding 1ppm a week..... if I see deficiencies I'll up it again, and again etc etc and if no change is noted I'd drop back and try something else.
 
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I'd be really surprised if the exact calcium:magnesium ratio was relevant.

Yeah I'm of the same opinion, doesn't hurt to ruminate on the minutia in a paper on Borneos forests though. I am leaning toward the 10:1 ratio in the interstitial soil as a byproduct of Magnesium having a 10x solubility ratio than Calcium and that weathered limestone (or evaporative conditions at water margins) forms part of the sample bumping the ratio up, the soil itself will be the broken remains of other riparian/epiphytic plants that collects in the cracks and crevices forming a matrix over/amongst the limestone, given all things equal that tissue would have Ca:Mg to give up in a ratio of 3:1.

It would be interesting if in the future you decide to bring the Mg down what results (if any) you may have.

Before I even start messing with ratios again I want to try in another tank to bring the water conductivity right down to the levels that Buce see in the wild in pristine Forrest over limestone to see what happens. The conductivity is 40 micro Siemens, taken from a water sample on the Kelian River above the Kelian Gold deposit (this is the paper the data is from), Alkalinity as CaCO₃ 13.47ppm, SO4 5ppm, Fe 0.06ppm, Mn 0.01ppm, Zn 0.01ppm, Ni <0.02ppm, Cu 0.00ppm (likely present in ppb). No idea for B, Mo and other trace elements, they will be there though in the ppb/ppt range.

I can understand how you quantify what’s going in, but what is being used to measure the consumption.

In my situation mainly through observation of negative plant response (Bucephalandra) to something bottoming out or accumulating when extending water change periods. I have tested for how Iron (mix of Gluconated Iron and DTPA) behaves in my tank when dosed so I can dose daily along with the other traces (unchelated) to an amount where Iron shouldn't accumulate to any great significance between water changes. As I front load my Macro dose at water change (ideally weekly) I can extend the period between the water changes allowing me to see negative responses in the plant, which is that new leaf growth slowed and it took three weeks for first leaf to curl in a Blue Theia, an upward rolling curl to a whole leaf, a Cherry Red new grown leaf curled tightly downward around the perimeter, Motleyana Wavy Green curls its leaves anyway so tough to say what's going on with that, it straight out melts on me when its really unhappy, Theia does that too to a lesser extent. It was near on 4 weeks for the first sign of leaf senescence in the Blue Theia. Week two saw me add back MgNo3 and KH₂PO₄ at the amount I would normally put in at water change, on titration testing PO₄ had completely bottomed out, Nitrate was still present (perceived accuracy/inaccuracy of the consumer titration tests considered, especially the nitrate), I would have dosed it again at the end of week 4 but I chickened out and performed a 75%ish water change (because I've seen seen the horror of Bucemaggedon too many times to become bored of it, not as scary as Anubiageddon though, that movie had killer worms in it!). I am as yet undecided if the deficiencies leading to melt are due to an element bottoming out or something else detrimentally accumulating (metal toxicity from unchelated traces arising past week three)

I have to say I have a Triffid in the tank (3ft Crypt Balansae in the corner of a 12inch Cube and it drapes across the surface providing a large amount of shade for the Buce below, still throwing out new leaves), it has its feet in a small pot of tropica soil which has not stopped it reaching the other end of the tank with some daughter plants growing in inert substrate. So a significant amount of ferts probably end up in that monster.

If I was not on a shoestring budget and I could go to town on this I would be measuring and logging data 24/7 with Ion Selective Electrodes.

:)
 
Hi all,
The conductivity is 40 micro Siemens
Interesting, so very few ions of any description. It may be to do with the amount of precipitation, if it rained pretty much every day then the water would be ~rain-water and the underlying geography would be less relevant.

Another possibility is that the solid geology isn't limestone, I know that gold deposits are usually in hard rock where it has undergone some subsequent volcanic activity.

The <"geology of Borneo"> looks quite complex, so that doesn't really help.

cheers Darrel
 
Have any of you caught the BBC's rivers of the world series on iPlayer right now? Saw one on the Amazon IIRC an there was a fresh spring annex on one part of the river where the water is practically pure. The fish were using it as a nursery to raise their fry.

Didn't catch many plants in there though.....
 
Saw one on the Amazon
Borneos forests
Have you read this book. I know wrong river, wrong continent, but good insights. Abstract (mine from memory): Basically no aquatic plants, no mosquitoes, virtually no minerals but lots of fish. Food chain is terrestrial into the water. Minerals such as they are wind blown from the sea, along long way away. Huge drainage catchment.
Rio Negro—Rich Life in Poor Water, by M. Goulding, M. Leal Carvalho & E.G. Ferreira. SPB Academic Publishing bv., P.O. Box 97747, 2509 GC The Hague, The Netherlands: xii + 200 pp., with 32 figures and 18 tables, 24 × 16 × 1 cm, paper cover, US $35, 1988.
 
Interesting, so very few ions of any description. It may be to do with the amount of precipitation, if it rained pretty much every day then the water would be ~rain-water and the underlying geography would be less relevant.

Average yearly precipitation 5 metres, lower altitudes seasonal variation, upper altitudes daily variation.

I found this paper to be an interesting read -

Trace metal and carbon isotopic variations in cave dripwater and stalagmite geochemistry from northern Borneo

Another possibility is that the solid geology isn't limestone, I know that gold deposits are usually in hard rock where it has undergone some subsequent volcanic activity.

The <"geology of Borneo"> looks quite complex, so that doesn't really help.

The complexity is an understatement seeing as the place started out as an evaporative basin interspersed with hydrothermal vents, and over nMillions of years the minerals held within these formations that were left high and dry were then interspersed around the surrounding landscape due to hydro geologic processes and not just once but many times over. I reckon the modern average rainfall of 5m is peanuts compared to the precipitation it has seen in the past.

I came across this paper when I was looking up Iron sources in Borneo -

Origin of iron carbonate layers in Tertiary coastal sediments of Central Kalimantan Province (Borneo), Indonesia

(Researchgate link, the only other link I found for his once free document has now been paywalled @$38 for the PDF)

The underlying geology doesn't always have to be limestone, it all depends on where on the river you are growing and what part of that landscape has been mixed up and changed over time. I suspect this is why there is such a huge variation in Buce species due to their adaptability to the landscape they have found themselves laying roots in.

Have any of you caught the BBC's rivers of the world series on iPlayer right now? Saw one on the Amazon IIRC an there was a fresh spring annex on one part of the river where the water is practically pure. The fish were using it as a nursery to raise their fry.

Didn't catch many plants in there though.....

Yeah that's the only one I have watched so far, it's too short, the 10 minute bit at the end showing a little more detail about the spring and other planty places really could have done with about 4hrs of extra footage to satisfy my curiosity.

Have you read this book.

No not read it. I've seen quite a few pristine areas like what's being discussed around Southeast Asia which has a not too dissimilar landscape to Borneo. I'd love to do Borneo itself but I am pretty sure I'd end up being persona non grata for the duration of a holiday getaway by irresistibly turning it into a field trip!

:)
 
Have you read this book. I know wrong river, wrong continent, but good insights. Abstract (mine from memory): Basically no aquatic plants, no mosquitoes, virtually no minerals but lots of fish. Food chain is terrestrial into the water. Minerals such as they are wind blown from the sea, along long way away. Huge drainage catchment.
Rio Negro—Rich Life in Poor Water, by M. Goulding, M. Leal Carvalho & E.G. Ferreira. SPB Academic Publishing bv., P.O. Box 97747, 2509 GC The Hague, The Netherlands: xii + 200 pp., with 32 figures and 18 tables, 24 × 16 × 1 cm, paper cover, US $35, 1988.

It definitely sounds like something I'd enjoy reading. I wonder if there is an e-book online somewhere?
 
Yeah that's the only one I have watched so far, it's too short, the 10 minute bit at the end showing a little more detail about the spring and other planty places really could have done with about 4hrs of extra footage to satisfy my curiosity.

:)

Tell me about it! A 5 minute segment on the most interesting part of the programme - really spoiled it for me.
 
Some pics from today - warts and all.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xzPsFACfaqYxvUg1gldYn3MoZvAexp5m

It's really annoying me that it screams iron from the chlorotic look. I have this same look regardless of Mg content so I'm probably almost ready to rule that out.

I just can't seem to get enough iron absorption with the EDTA traces from APF despite a PH of 6.2. I think I need some more iron options. Gluconate perhaps? I've tried from no trace dosing to 4 x and more Fe (EDTA DTPA EDDHA) and the symptoms still persist albeit a lot less with the DTPA/EDDHA.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

p.s had some clado appear 2 days after WC by the way. So this must be an imbalance as opposed to any excesses.

Edit: just bought some Flourish Iron - I'll work out a dosing regime using the APF traces as I'm sure the Fe in this is the problem, not the other metals. Along with the Seachem iron and maybe some EDTA 13% at 0.1ppm
 
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It's really annoying me that it screams iron from the chlorotic look. I have this same look regardless of Mg content so I'm probably almost ready to rule that out.

Bucephalandra Motleyana Wavy Green did this to me, pale old leaf growth leaf with dark veining (new Buce leaves are usually always very pale when they first unfurl). There was plenty of Magnesium in the water and this plant just wasn't able to utilise it, the move toward the way I'm doing things now alleviated this considerably. Java fern growth in the tank at the same time was a normal healthy green, but I find this plant to be a poor indicator of fertiliser levels and wouldn't be surprised if it could suck nutrients out of a vacuum.

You could always try some BuceJuce TM. ;) I could mix you up a batch and send you some.
 
EDTA 13% at 0.1ppm
I make my own based on EDTA FE 13% and a similar one with Traces and Fe. I adjust so that Fe is 0.1ppm and Cu and others are 0.001ppm and keep an eye on the shrimps.

Outlay was expensive but enough to last several life times. Took the view that if you mixed your own from dry, then you knew what you have.
 
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I make my own based on EDTA FE 13% and a similar one with Traces and Fe. I adjust so that Fe is 0.1ppm and Cu and others are 0.001ppm and keep an eye on the shrimps.

Outlay was expensive but enough to last several life times. Took the view that if you mixed your own from dry, then you knew what you have.

That's what I want - the ability to experiment with individual elements. I'm even a bit sceptical of premixed traces because not every spoon out the bag is the same composition as the last. I'm sure the differences are minor and keeping a strict dosing regime would ensure that all elements, whether more in one scoop or less in another, are eventually getting to the tank.

I'm not striving to get a maintenance free tank that I can just set to auto-dose everything and be done with it. I like the messing around.
 
OH MY GOD - this Flourish iron (gluconate) smells like a 10 day old curry!!! Absolutely rotten!

Things are pootling along, will post some pics tomorrow when I can find the time.
 
Sorry I didn't get pics up - my van got broken in to and complicated a few things.

However, I have come to a conclusion that this is a K problem. Since the last water change and only adding 7ppm of K the plants get better and better each day, but if I dose K as KNO3 or K2SO4 or any other micro/ferro product with K in, things stop instantly.

No new shoots, no new root growth and old roots decaying, turning brown. Really veiny leaves on everything like a marbled effect (see pics). I read a lot of terrestrial plant literature that says high K there can block Fe Ca Zn which interested me as I was showing induced Ca issues in the sunset upward cupped leaf shape with pale yellow veiny look, almost chlorotic. I still don't know what caused the leaf edge roll though. I think it was stress from the induced deficiencies because it happened almost overnight and usually after a water change.

Cardamine is a good plant to watch in my tank. Its roots are suspended, it's not in the substrate too tough. In at least the last couple of days the leaf size and shape has improved dramatically and rather than the pale Mg deficient look (tortoise shell pattern) the leaves are greener and much more waxy looking. Almost shiny.

Ceratopteris is showing improvements as is repens and even, EVEN the dwarf baby tears!

The rest is looking promising too and I at least know now that higher N and adding Mg is not a problem. It's just the K that's the elephant in the room. It's in all the products I was using - Easylife Ferro, Profito and more obviously KNO3 and PO4. It just seems, for me in reconstituted, or any water under 10GH and I get these issues with EI amounts of K.

KH2PO4 has negligible amounts of K for what I dose it at so I'm going to be dosing next water change with no KHCO3 and will use MgNO3 for N and KH2PO4 for P and K. I want to see where the next two weeks goes with dosing K solely through KH2PO4.

Oh and the gluconate is in the dosing regime now in place of Easylife Ferro - I don't think it has any K?? Doesn't say on the label.
 
Ok so an update - I've been running with this for 2 weeks after literally dosing nothing at all since the last post.

Water has pretty much stayed the same, I mix up to these parameters now:

Ca - 40 ppm
Mg - 10 ppm
Cl - 14 ppm
S - 11.7 ppm

KH 5.2
GH 8

Macro (dosed daily before lights on)

NO3 --- 0.5ppm (as KNO3)

PO4 --- 0.1ppm (as KH2PO4)

K --- 0.34ppm (as KNO3)

Micro (dosed daily 4 hours after macro - APF trace)

B --- 0.01 ppm
Cu --- 0.0025 ppm
Fe --- 0.09 ppm
Mn --- 0.02 ppm
Mo --- 0.0015 ppm
Zn --- 0.0125 ppm

Week totals Macro:

NO3 --- 3.5 ppm
PO4 --- 0.7 ppm
K --- 2.38 ppm

Week totals micro:

B --- 0.07 ppm
Cu --- 0.0175 ppm
Fe --- 0.63 ppm
Mn --- 0.14 ppm
Mo --- 0.01 ppm
Zn --- 0.09 ppm

I'll grab pics when I get a chance. Health is improving way more dramatically than I've seen with this lean dose.
 
Forgot to mention that the Ni has been added. I made a 500ml solution:

200ml
201mg NiSO4
1ml dose in 150L = 0.0015ppm (1.5ug/l)

Hope that's right? Nothing has died, and I read that Ni is the least toxic of the metals, far less so than Cu.

I only added the single dose for the week. Going to break it down into my micro mix. That will require around 5.6mg and a decent set of scales...

Must say also, thank you to X3NiTH for sending me some NiSO4 and the advice/good conversation. Really appreciate it.
 
Hi All,

I haven’t read all of this thread but wanted to ask a question since it was touched on early in the discussion.

If.you add a lot of KHCO3 to your tank is it possible that you will cause calcium to go out of solution if it forms calcium carbonates?

cheers
CJ
 
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