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Single stage + ph controller

deeproots

Member
Joined
26 Sep 2016
Messages
48
Location
Bedfordshire
Hi All,
I'm new to the pressurised co2 world (currently using liquid). I have a 350l tank with dsuny leds - I don't need crazy growth just keep basic plants healthy so I want to keep the budget down both for initial purchase and ongoing costs.

The top priority is safety. So - I was thinking a single stage reg + ph controller rather than a dual stage + ph controller might fit the bill of keeping it safe whilst keeping costs reasonable. Any advice gladly received.

Thanks!
 
I've only been using co2 for a few months now and like you was originally intended to go down the route of a ph controller. In the event I decided it was unnecessary. I would use the money saved to buy dual stage reg + cheap ph meter. The ph meter doesn't have to be spot on accurate as it's the change after adding co2 that's important. As I say I'm new too so wait and see what others say.
 
The top priority is safety
what do you mean? A dual stage and a solenoid on a timer is all you need, apart from a good way to dissolve your CO2.
A pH controller isn't needed. You find a set amount of BPS that works for you and set the timers for that in conjunction to the lighting timer.
 
@Edvet sorry should have been clearer. I want to avoid any fish deaths as a result of overdosing (by accident or by dumping):

My thoughts being - If it has a ph controller this cannot happen - it will just shut down when it reaches the desired PH. Also there would be no need for a dual stage as with these as I understand it the only reason to have one is they stop the co2 dumping at the end of the canister. If the PH controller is there on a single stage then again it will shut off on the correct PH thus preventing overdosing. Have I got this right?
 
@Edvet sorry should have been clearer. I want to avoid any fish deaths as a result of overdosing (by accident or by dumping):

My thoughts being - If it has a ph controller this cannot happen - it will just shut down when it reaches the desired PH. Also there would be no need for a dual stage as with these as I understand it the only reason to have one is they stop the co2 dumping at the end of the canister. If the PH controller is there on a single stage then again it will shut off on the correct PH thus preventing overdosing. Have I got this right?

if your ph probe fails you could end up overdosing anyway
 
Unless your pH controller can control a 1 unit pH drop from CO2 on to lights on, as opposed to absolute pH values, the only thing it will do is enable you to either grow algae and kill your plants very easily, due to severely under dosing CO2, or gas your fish even more easily by over dosing CO2.

Better to invest the money in a good CO2 regulator, single stage is fine (pressure just drops off once tank pressure falls), a good drop checker and reading & understanding the article on CO2 measurement.
https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker

Also spending the time and effort getting CO2 levels and distribution correct, will pay off far more then wasting money high tech not necessary equipment. :D.
 
Ok thanks all - looking at this kit:

https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/dual-stage-co2-system-ultimate-p486.html

I have some questions I'd really appreciate:

1.Safety - how safe is co2 pressurised? I have small children - I'll be putting this inside the cabinet and the kids wont touch it but I need this to be super safe - any extra precautions I can take with the source (probably use a fire extinguisher unless a safer method)
2.As I said I don't need super strong growth, I just want to switch from liquid carbon to this and keep decent healthy plants and minimal algae. I saw on another thread (zeus) that he slowed his rate right down so it lasted 6 months before needing a refill. Are there any guidelines on slow release and how to manage this properly?
3.I have an eheim pro 3 350 filter - is there any issue in putting an inline diffuser on the outlet - would it slow it down too much? If I put it on the inlet will is damage/degrade the workings of the filter?


Thanks - sorry for all the questions I'm trying to make the right decision.
 
Fire extinguishers are very safe. We have loads at work and my kids nursery and no one has been injured or died so far.

If you are putting it in a cupboard, just make sure door latch is kiddie proof and cylinder wont accidentally fall over when opening the door.

Putting a diffuser in the filter outlet is fine, that's what I have done for years, no problem. I just replaced the in-line diffusers pipe locking nuts with stainless jubilee clips so no chance of pipe accidentally being pulled off (he speaks from experience).

Main thing with CO2, you need to ensure your filter flow rate (as on box) is at least x10 your tanks capacity. I have 180litre tank and 2000litre/hour filtration rate. Anything less than x10, you will struggle to get CO2 sufficiently flowing around the tank, with resulting poor plant health and associated algae. A power head can help as well, I have a 3200litre/hour power head as well.

Other thing make sure you can get a source of fire extinguishers for reasonable cost. I get a 2Kg one for £10. Usually 2nd hand, with not that many years to go before cylinder needs testing (or even out of test !!).
 
@ian_m thanks!

1.I guess I'm referring to the co2 being hooked up to regulators which worries me (dangerous leaks, suddent decompression at the fittings causing explosions etc). Maybe being paranoid just want to be absolutely safe
2.Outlet - I have an eheim pro3 350. It's rated to 1050l/hr. If I want 10x I need something which will push 3500/hr which seems extreme! Hadn't considered having to buy a new filter. I use a spraybar across the whole tank which gives me good circulation around the tank. A new filter would l make the cost prohibitive I think, maybe I should stick to liquid co2 which has been working fine (apart from melting vallis). I'm not growing carpeting plants or anything too demanding
 
@Edvet thanks - could use soem advice on how low - low intensity, low photoperiod (in my experience with this tank the plants didnt do so well with low intensity as i have quite a deep tank at 20 inches). What about high intensity and shorter photoperiod? At the moment it goes low (20%) for first two hours, up to gradually increasing to 60% at peak and back down to low gradually. 10 hour photoperiod. I'd be more than happy to just dose ferts and drop liquid carbo altogether
 
I have 2 aqauriums without any lights standing next to an east faced window. The one closest to the window contains Bacopa and a Potamogeton, some crypts and mosses.. The one next to it further away from the window contains Bolbitis, Anubias, crypts and mosses also still a tiny amount of hairgras as left over from it's high tech days in the past. :)

Plants in both tanks are relatively well growing and healthy.. :thumbup:

I guess that is about as low as you can get, especialy this time of year.. :) So the answer to how low can you go? Aint that easy to give, it depends on what you like to grow..
 
By the way Ph controlers?

Have one major disadvantage :) Since they are permanently hooked to the power grit, they function as a ground pin, grounding the aqaurium water volume. SInce an aqaurium actualy is an electrical entity on it;s own, it should never be grounded. If it is and you have capacitive ot inductive stray voltage, than there will constantly be a current flowing through the water, with the possibilty it is causing irritative sensation to your lifestock. Than if you put such a device permanently in your tank water, make sure there is no significant stray voltage. As said an aqaurium is an electrical entity on it's own, there always will be milivoltage to measure. Ar eyou over millivoltage there likely is a stray, directly, capacitive or inductive. Not grounding the water it will do non at all, with ground it'll flow current and there shouldn't be.

Than if you use one still, because you are 100% sure you aint got stray voltage, than consider a Ph probe is a volt meter, it sends a current into the water and that way it measures the resistance between tank water and internal fluid as a reference for determine Ph value. Depending on how much voltage the device uses which is different by make depending on the electronics used behind the probe. Anyway very close to the pH probe there also can be a current in the water cuasing sensation to lifestock. Than if you use one, best practice is not to put it in the aqaurium itself, preferably in line or in the sump.
Then it's current will be not in the aqaurium itself.

When it comes to CO² and pH controlers there is quite some general consensus around about it that completely defies logic in the way it is explained.

Let me explain as far as my logic allows. :) From our general experience, it is said we should have a stable CO² administering to the aqaurium to keep plants healthy and not favor algae growth. Thus we should have a stable BPM all through the light periode.

But with keeping plant metabolism into respect a stable bpm doesn't stand for a stable CO² contents in the tank on the contrary. Example, if we start with 10 bpm 1 hour before lights on and stay at 10 bpm for the rest of the day. And lights go on, the plant needs an x amount of time to metabolize available co² at 100% capacity. Lets use some logic here, then there should be more co² in the water all that time the plant is not taking up at 100% capacity. If bpm stays unchanged during the light cycle, there definitively should be a pH swing peaking at the plants highest uptake capacity. Conclusion, a stable bpm is not a stable co2 contents in the water.

Now if you use a pH controller wrongly, with controling the pH drop to make it shut down the co². Than actualy you could say the waters co2 contents is more stable. But not it's administering!! Because at peak plant uptake it adds extra on top, peak uptake makes to pH go up and the controler takes it down again with adding extra co². It is actualy oversaturating the water column with co² like that. Likely favoring algae growth and wasting co2 on top.

Than if you still decide to use a pH controler for your peace of mind, Than you still should use a drop cheker and a stable bpm.. Than firstly monitor your ph profile without controlling it via ph controller. And set the controller to shut off slightly above the peak value of plant uptake. That way you still have a stable administering via bpm and the controler will not interfere and never shut down the co² because it never reaches its set value if your bpm is stable. But you still have the safety it able to prevent a tank dump if it comes to that and you still have a permanent device to read your ph profile on the fly.

Not going to debate in how far this is usefull or not.. That's something personal. :) If we would throw out everthing we don't realy need in life?? I guess we all would have a rather big pile of trash worth quite some cash in front of our doorstep. :rolleyes:

Anyway, ph controler
Just know what it is,
Know what it does,
Know how to install it,
And know how to use it.

And not much can go wrong if you like a gadget like that. :thumbup:
 
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Wow so much information! Thanks so much for the details @zozo and @Edvet . So in summary,

no need for a pH controller but a dual stage is a must. if I want Co2 injected I would be risking it with the return rate on my filter. If I go with a diffuser instead of inline and a power head to distribute maybe? Or is it really not a good idea to go pressurised co2 with my setup then?

I'd probably be OK low light and no liquid co2 but I kind of like slightly higher light it really shows off my fish so I think I need some kind of Co2 source
 
I'm currently not using co², also don't know if i ever will again.. So actualy it feels kinda mean to jump in and be a spoil. I should actualy shut up and let yu kids enjoy the ride..

But any how, relying on technical equipment in any form and having a bit of bad luck.

This can happen too with a dual stage.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-disaster.41626/

Can it happen with a dual stage and a pH controller? Likely with a bit of more bad luck. :nailbiting: There aint nothing realy 100% foolproof, if it never happened to you doesn't mean it can't happen to someone else.

Just be truthfull to one another. :) That's my main drive.. Not bashing nor advocating a pH controller.

Good luck.. :thumbup:
 
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