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phosphate deficiency

Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
469
Location
Aylesbury
Hi All,
Just got some tiny holes in some of my stem plants older leaves.
After googling it it seems to suggest phosphate deficiency.. what's the consensus?
Do I need to buy a phosphate test kit to confirm or just increase EI dose. Thanks

Currently dosing EI, 30ml X 3 a week macro and the same micro alternate days. Macro Solution is double strength so 2 tsp in 500ml of potassium phosphate + everything else. Tank is roughly 250L

(Photos taken during 50% water change which is why there flopped over)
IMG_20180620_185630.jpg
IMG_20180620_185608.jpg

IMG_20180620_185702.jpg
 
Well obviously EI should eliminate nutrient definency.

Holes in leaves is normally a co2 issue, perhaps look at moving the co2 around the tank better if you feel I are unable to add more.
 
Well obviously EI should eliminate nutrient definency.

Holes in leaves is normally a co2 issue, perhaps look at moving the co2 around the tank better if you feel I are unable to add more.
I agree with Chris. Any structural fault in plants is a CO2 issue.

Cheers,
 
What about a maganese deficiency?

I'm just dosing on the heavy side with liquid carbon as I find it keeps the algae down, I'm also getting through about 2kg of co2 a month.

My flow is over 10 x (4000lph pump)

(Hard water so the pH stays stable)

1770c209511a99f67447d3d16671e971.png
 
(Hard water so the pH stays stable)
Drop checker color?

If you're adding CO2 but there's no shift in pH, CO2 availability may be an issue

Hard alkaline water can also impact bioavailability of the nutrients (fertilizers) you're adding, though it's also possible with hard water that some/most of these nutrients are already present in your tap water (your water supplier can provide a comprehensive analysis)
As you're already following an EI dosing program, likely simplest action is to increase this slightly (eg you're dosing 3x weekly, increase to 4x)

How old are these leaves?
Snails, Otos (& even shrimp) that continually graze leaves can result in microscopic damage (or readily visible damage)
 
What about a maganese deficiency?
The chart that you are showing is not related to deficiencies in aquatic plants. That is a chart related to deficiencies found in terrestrial plants.

As mentioned by alto, pH stability is not really desirable. It indicates that there is insufficient CO2.

Any structural flaws in leaves, if not due to predation by fauna, is always a result to failure to uptake proper levels of CO2.
As these leaves appear to be near the surface (assumed from the photo) it could easily be that they encounter excessive light intensity.
If the assumption is incorrect, and if the leaves shown are located further down, then they may be suffering CO2 starvation due to blocked flow.

As a general rule, if you are dosing EI and encounter nutrient deficiency, then it is a certainty that flow distribution is at fault.

Cheers,
 
The picture was posted on this aquatic plant site.
http://aquathusiast.com/about/
There are a collection of similar pictures on Google.

As most of the plants we are growing are semi territorial I'm not sure why defficacy issues would be any different.

I fully accept that 90% of all the problems we have are co2 related, co2 is far harder to get into the tank than anything else. As soon as you agitate it or warm it up the co2 will come out.

I'm dosing 10ml day of liquid carbon + 50ml after a water change, I'm also getting through 2kg of co2 a month with a inline diffuser, I've worked hard to improve my flow, my pump is 4000lph so over 15x, I'm sure this will drop with inline filters and heater and diffuser this will drop but still should be over 10.

I could understand the issues if it was a carpeting plant or a plant in the corner but these are all doing well. This plant sits right in the return flow, I've trimmed it all back or I would send a photo of the small co2 bubbles blowing through the leaves.

If anything the plant is growing too quickly, it's growing probably close to 15cm a week, all the damage/ holes are on older leaves.

Could it be a substrate issue with more root tabs needed?
does anyone know how Hygrophila Polysperma absorbs most of its nutrients?

Alternativily Could the flow actually be damaging the leaves?

I've had some sick fish so wonder if I could be the antibiotic dosed food (kanaplex and focus) but I'm pretty sure I had the holes before I started the treatment.

Interesting comments about hard water, I've increased both the macro and micro by 50%, I can't see this doing any harm.

(Photo taken before new skimmer was installed, c02 bubbles collecting on the surface )
The Hygrophila Polysperma is in the centre at the back.

IMG_1689.JPG
 
I have seen the illustration before and was not aware it was misleading as the defiency finder puts you to respected fertiliser suppliers? Some of the sponsers may have more reliable charts. The tank looks good overall my expierence of H.polsperma water column fertilisation should be sufficient of course root tablets help. If your fertliser regime could be incrresed rather than look for a specific, have a test about with a small filter,powerhead to improve flow direction/s rather than intensity.
 
I also had holes in the leaves of H. Polysperma. I don't use CO2, only liquid carbon. The plant grew very fast.. I decided to dim the lights and it worked. The plant began growing slower but looking healthy. I don't have a lot experience, but maybe you could try to lower the lightning level while trying to improve your flow and CO2 distribution..
 
H polysperma grows too fast. It can never have enough of any nutrient. I suggest deliberately shading it or ripping it out.
 
I also had holes in the leaves of H. Polysperma. I don't use CO2, only liquid carbon. The plant grew very fast.. I decided to dim the lights and it worked. The plant began growing slower but looking healthy. I don't have a lot experience, but maybe you could try to lower the lightning level while trying to improve your flow and CO2 distribution..

I'm hoping to do a full Co2 profile Asap, just programming the microcontroller as I'm too lazy to spend a whole day measuring the PH every 15 minutes
I'm reluctant to dim the light, it might fix the H polysperma, but i suspect it will cause problems elsewhere.
If anything I would like to increase my light intensity and get my red plants a bit redder and get the carpet to grow a bit faster.

have a test about with a small filter, powerhead
I'd like to take stuff out the tank not add it.. This plant sits right in the flow and is constantly moving so i'm not convinced.

H polysperma grows too fast. It can never have enough of any nutrient. I suggest deliberately shading it or ripping it out.

Probably not a bad suggestion, replace with something that grows a bit slower. Feels a bit like quitting though,

Just got distracted and started looking at a few alternatives

Cryptocoryne crispatula would be the favorite, any suggestions, there are some amazing aquascapers on here?

3 (1).jpeg

Or
I like the look of Heteranthera zosterifolia but get the feeling it will grow just as fast and have the same issues.
3.jpeg
 
Hi all,
H polysperma grows too fast. It can never have enough of any nutrient.
Same thought really, for me it either grew at the speed of light, or slowly withered, dependent upon the nutrient addition (I'm not a CO2 user).

The plant health looks pretty good.
Cryptocoryne crispatula would be the favorite
A good choice for harder water, still a good grower but much less maintenance.

cheers Darrel
 
I just rechecked everything and it's all Co2 tight.
I'm pleased I'm not buying the small jbl cylinders.
pH seems really stable at 6.5 only fluctuates after a water change.
 
2kg of co2 a month is loads! Are you sure your system is not leaking?

Not that much IMO I have a 500l tank and it uses 6.5Kg per month, Same issue as OP have a carpet with depth so need higher [CO2] so keep plants going as turning up the lights gets holes in plants higher in the water, increasing [CO2] or faster flow gets the Carbon their at a higher rate to match the photon delivery so less holes/melting
 
The picture was posted on this aquatic plant site.
http://aquathusiast.com/about/
There are a collection of similar pictures on Google.
Yes, I am aware of their location. The picture was originally a photograph taken of a wall poster in an agricultural college laboratory and then digitized. Someone assumed that the data was applicable to aquatic plants, photoshopped the title block and posted it on the internet.

We are all living in The Matrix, where lies are sold as truth and truth is discarded in the rubbish heap.
If anything the plant is growing too quickly, it's growing probably close to 15cm a week, all the damage/ holes are on older leaves.
That means the plant is seeing a lot of light, as light accelerates growth rates but places an excessive demand for the uptake of nutrients/CO2.
I'm reluctant to dim the light, it might fix the H polysperma, but i suspect it will cause problems elsewhere.
No it won't. It will simply reduce the growth rate overall. Hobbyists are always associating high growth rate with high health. This is a mistake. Plants can grow very slowly and be in excellent health, while they can conversely grow very quickly and be very unhealthy.
I have seen the illustration before and was not aware it was misleading as the defiency finder puts you to respected fertiliser suppliers? Some of the sponsers may have more reliable charts.
No one has more reliable charts because although there are some general symptoms that apply to most plants, the same deficiency will result in many different symptoms in different species.

Cheers,
 
No it won't. It will simply reduce the growth rate overall.

Tropica have a picture that' everywhere relating to plants and light level, but thinking about what you are saying makes alot of sense.

lumen-per-litre-uk_300x218.png

A beginner like myself is far less likely to grow a advanced tropica plant sucessfully, but what your saying is that the reason it will turn to mush will be due to co2 rather than anything to do with light levels also the process of trying to go from terristrial to aquatic won't help.

My only argument against this is with all the water changes, tank cleaning, shrimps nibbles, fish. Over time the leaves and plants are going to get damaged.
The plant will need enough light to grow at a rate faster than this damage occurs or it will slowly die.


will simply reduce the growth rate

I would like my carpet of Monte Carlo to grow a bit faster, not because it's not looking healthy but just because I'm impatient.
 
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@Barbara H.polysperma is the go to fast "weed" to fight algae and should help often used to balance a tank. I have had it punch throw duckweed with T8s lights so moderate lighting is all you need,dunno maybe yours is suffering a bit of plant exhaustion doubt it though?If you do get crypts its a useful plant for shading them I found. The internal filter/powerhead is a method used to work out flow not necessarly in tank long term. Think you did right thing researching charts but as Ceg says they often are inconclusive as deficiency symptoms can be similar for different causes
 
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