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Diagnosing the right course of action

Tom43

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2017
Messages
36
Location
Portsmouth, UK
I have a dilemma about which way to go next with my planted aquarium, as I'm seeing some signs of deficiency on the stem plant leaves. At the same time, my tap water supply has changed chemistry a bit of late.

SOME CONTEXT

- tank was planted about 2.5 months ago
- aquarium is a 200L Lido, standard T5 (2x 28W bulbs) flourescent lighting on 8 hours a day with siesta of 4 hours (until a week ago I had blue LED moonlight on auto timer coming on for 3 hours each evening; I now have this on manual switch for viewing only when I'm there rather than always-on each evening)
- CO2 gas injection via CO2Art single stage regulator on timer (on 2 hours before lights on, off one hour before); drop checker shows green before lights on
- about 40% of tank base is planted; 30 WCM minnows and 6 Peacock Gudgeons, 17 Amano shrimp
- daily dosing alternate days of Seachem Flourish Trace and EasyLife Profito; Seachem Flourish Excel added every other day
- Back of tank substrate is Seachem Flourite (red) underneath AquaSoil (small grains), and front substrate is small grey gravel mixed with small river pebbles and stones
- External filtration via Fluval 306, aerating surface at night time (by raising Lilly pipe)
- weekly water change 50%, and gravel cleaned via siphon; fish and shrimp fed 5 days a week with mix of live food, frozen food and pellets

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THE 3 (RELATED) PROBLEMS

1. Algae returning
On return from holiday, I'd left the tank without water changes for 2.5 weeks. Chemistry was okay with slightly raised ammonia (from zero to approx 0.1/0.2) and nitrates, and slightly lower PH, but nothing to worry about. Chemistry now back to normal again (2 weeks later) with PH 7.5, nitrites and ammonia showing zero or close to zero, and nitrates at 10ppm. But algae seems to be increasing, especially fine hair-like algae on my weeping moss (mid way down the tree trunk; the weeping moss at the surface/top of the tree trunk seems much less affected). Also brown diotome algae increased on stones and tank glass since the holiday. Algae was previously brought under control using Seachem Excel over-dosing via spot-treatment with syringe, and hence I add a bit of Excel as part of my dosing regime.

2. Changing water chemistry of tap water
I learned from my LFS that whilst away, clients had been reporting higher silicates in the tap water; so I bought a JBL SiO2 test kit which shows >6ppm in the tap water which I use for water changes. My weekly tank water chemistry testing also showed PO4 had gone down to zero from a consistent 0.5mg/l (I use PhosGuard in the filter, as previously my tap water PO4 was off the charts). So I also tested the tap water for phosphates, and PO4 level has reduced in the tap water from 5mg/l to 2mg/l.

3. Stem plants showing small signs of deficiency
Playing with a new macro camera lens and flash, I noticed that the plants were showing some black spots on the leaves. Looking closer at the photos, there are no black spots at the top of the tank only mid way down. At the bottom, some leaves are melting. This problem didn't exist before, and seems to have occurred in the last 2 weeks or possibly whilst I was away on holiday (and not dosing fertilisers etc, though I had reduced the light from 8 hours a day to 6 hours a day, and reduced CO2 in line with this).

Top of tank: no signs of black spots on leaves, less algae on moss

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Close-up near top of tank: no black spots

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Mid way down the tank: Black spots on leaves near the shrimp... lower down by the substrate the problem gets worse...

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Mid way down: you have to look closely to see the black spots, and hence I hadn't spotted the problem sooner...

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CHOOSING A COURSE OF ACTION: OPTIONS

I've been reading up on this forum about EI fertilisers and contemplating this regime, and also reading up here and elsewhere on the debates about algae and its causes. In a nutshell, my understanding from Tom Barr and others (for a high tech aquarium) is that plant health is the key factor to focus on and hence this post. I also understand that light and CO2 seem to be the most important factors driving growth, followed by nutrients. I note there is some debate about limiting PO4 but that debate went a bit beyond my current understanding...

So my question is which combination of these actions should I take (I realise these things are related, hence the request for advice!):

1. Increase CO2 (ie up the bubble rate); I have a suspicion the dispersion of CO2 is better in parts of the tank than others, and the stem plant affected in the photos above seems to be getting fewer bubbles from the CO2 diffuser - I use a small circulation pump to blow the bubbles around and create some flow in the tank, but this stem plant is somewhat in the 'shadow' of that pump and its flow. I could also experiment with different positions for the CO2 diffuser, but is this splitting hairs?

2. Increase light: I've been contemplating using the Arcadia LED bulbs that fit my T5 lighting, probably their Freshwater Pro light. I understand this would increase the light output which might help some of my struggling carpet plants at the bottom of this deep tank. However I'm wary of adding more light and increasing algae if my CO2/nutrient levels are not sufficient...

3. Change to EI ferts from my liquid ferts

4. Take out the phosphate remover from my filter: my tank water is now showing zero PO4 and yet my plants need it, could this be the cause of the black spot deficiency signs? If PO4 in the tap water goes up in future, I can always put it back... I've also read that PO4 doesn't cause algae blooms anyway, and plant health is more important...

5. Add a silicate-remover?

Clearly I could change these variables one by one, 2 months at a time, and have the answer in a year... but I'd be happy to take a punt on the combined experience here and short cut the learning process!

Thanks for your advice.
 
First thing i would suggest is remove the phosphate remover from your filter.Excess phospphate will not cause you problems.Low phosphates will. Low phoshate levels could be the cause of the symptoms you discribe.
If things improve its a easy fix.Has cost you nothing:).
 
I would also move your filter lntake to the opposite side of the tank,This in its self should improve the flow around the tank.
 
First thing i would suggest is remove the phosphate remover from your filter.Excess phospphate will not cause you problems.Low phosphates will. Low phoshate levels could be the cause of the symptoms you discribe.
If things improve its a easy fix.Has cost you nothing:).

Thanks, did that today during the weekly water change. I plan to see if that improves things.
 
From the first picture i can see rotala stunted grow ,which leads to co2 issue
Also the lily pipe is making too much surface agitation which eliminates co2 from the tank, try lower the lily pipe more in the water

Hi thanks, I've lowered the Lily pipe. Can you say more about the stunted growth you see, are you referring to the smaller leaves on the stem? The leaves seem to grow faster and larger only when they reach the top of the tank.

Thanks.
 
Thanks for the comments so far.

What do you suggest re the lighting? I was thinking of getting the Arcadia LED bulbs for the T5 standard lighting, to get more light to the bottom of the tank as it's deep. If I do this alongside EI ferts, will this work for this setup? My tank is not as heavily planted as some, since the aesthetic I wanted was a mixture of river bank and river bed. Thanks, Tom
 
Hi thanks, I've lowered the Lily pipe. Can you say more about the stunted growth you see, are you referring to the smaller leaves on the stem? The leaves seem to grow faster and larger only when they reach the top of the tank.

Thanks.

yes i refer to those smaller leaves
and rotala grows better when it reaches the top because they get acces to more CO2 on the top of the tank (from air)
 
Okay, some acrylic pipe on order to move the inlet pipe to the other side.

I've been mulling over the CO2 as well after reading some of the articles on here. I have an atomiser from CO2 Art, and chose to use the ceramic diffuser for mainly cosmetic reasons. I think i'll try the atomiser and see if that improves things. When I move the inlet over, I'll experiment placing the atomiser that side and see if I can get the CO2 to flow into the filter inlet.

I'm also going to have a think about the flow. Reading up on one of the threads on here, I'm wondering if I can do anything with the placement of the circulation pump. I've thinned out the stem plants at the back which has helped a bit too. One of my challenges is the hardscaping which is stepped, so the rear left side of the tank (where the plant problems are) gets the least flow.

Will post findings back here over the coming weeks. Thanks for the comments.
 
Hi Tom
If you move the inlet to the back right as said i feel this will improve your flow around the tank a inlne diffuser the ones that fit on the filter outlet pipe is prob the best way to improve your co2 distribution and will give you less things in your tank too.Allthough they can give a misty look to your tank when the co2 is on.
Your flow should be covered by your 306 as this gives you near 10 times turn over useing your filters quoted flow rate.
Not really that up on T5 lights, But i think the Jewel ones are pretty good.Reflectors will improve their efficientsy if you dont allready have them on. You are supposed to change the bulbs every 12 months or so.When this time comes change to plant pros if you wish.
Once you have used the ferts you have i would change to Aquarium Plant Foods UK EI. Get thier ei starter kit this gives you every thing you need and is easy to mix and dose.Will give you better ferts and will be alot cheaper than your current ferts.The dry salts last ages.
 
Hi Tom
If you move the inlet to the back right as said i feel this will improve your flow around the tank a inlne diffuser the ones that fit on the filter outlet pipe is prob the best way to improve your co2 distribution and will give you less things in your tank too.Allthough they can give a misty look to your tank when the co2 is on.
Your flow should be covered by your 306 as this gives you near 10 times turn over useing your filters quoted flow rate.
Not really that up on T5 lights, But i think the Jewel ones are pretty good.Reflectors will improve their efficientsy if you dont allready have them on. You are supposed to change the bulbs every 12 months or so.When this time comes change to plant pros if you wish.
Once you have used the ferts you have i would change to Aquarium Plant Foods UK EI. Get thier ei starter kit this gives you every thing you need and is easy to mix and dose.Will give you better ferts and will be alot cheaper than your current ferts.The dry salts last ages.

Thank you Dave.

Yes I'm going to look into the inline diffuser option given I'm moving the inlet pipe and will be playing with pipework when I install that. I'm a bit worried by the cloudiness though, since when I clean the filter I get that cloudy look in the tank until the filter settles down, and it's pretty murky. I think it's micro-bubbles, and not sediment, since the cloudiness is a sort of white opaqueness. Not sure I'd want the tank looking like that all the time. But will look into this option further. I'm guessing the in-tank atomiser might create a similar murkiness though! Is there a cost-effective way to measure the CO2 in the water other than a drop checker?

Re the flow, yes the 306 should be plenty powerful. I've actually removed half the media from the bottom tray (the large ceramic 'blocks' designed to interrupt flow and thereby catch the large particles) to improve flow through the filter, since it was pretty packed and I was worrying the flow rate would be badly reduced. However the problem I see is the distribution in the tank, rather than the rate of flow through the filter. Judging simply by the amount of sway of plants, I seem to have a dead spot to the left of the tree trunk at the back where the plants don't move. Leaves are melting here on the stem plants at the bottom; though I've also read this happens anyway on stem plants as the top of the plants get all the nutrition and light. I'm going to try re-directing the eheim circulation pump to get some flow to that side of the tank, simply angling the pump more directly to the front of the tank (it's currently angled 45 degrees to the middle of the front glass pain).

Re the T5 bulbs, they are probably 2 years old. I bought the tank second hand (previously a salt water tank) and cleaned it up but left the original flourescent bulbs. They look quite aged. So I think I'll just replace them with new on that basis, and LEDs seem to make sense given the longer life. Am I right in thinking the hair grass at the bottom of the tank might fair better with more light? The tank is quite deep, and the hair grass seems to be struggling - it did fine until I went on holiday but hasn't recovered since. The Hemianthus micranthemoides seems to be doing fine by contrast, but has larger leaves so hence I'm wondering if light is the difference? The HM under the 'root bridge' (covered in java moss) was not doing well by comparison, and so I've moved it out of the shade - this also suggests it's light not flow (and nutrient transport) that is the issue? If the HM getting plenty of light is doing fine, then there must be enough CO2 imagine...

I've upped the CO2 bubble rate and this has certainly increased the PH according to the bubble checker (lighter green), but I've no idea if this is just reading the bubble count or reflects more dissolved CO2... I might have to get a PH pen I think.

I'm near the end of my Flourish Trace, so I decided to swap over to EI ferts now given the cost difference as you say. I ordered the starter kit from Aquarium Plant Foods.

Thanks again for the inputs, much appreciated.
 
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I think changing your flow patten and co2 distribution will help with the problems you discribe to be honest.
I would move your drp checker to the opposite side of the tank right side put it mid to bottom of the tank it is to high up and to close to your diffuser where you have it at the min.You want your drop checker to be lime green when the lights come on and trough out your photo period.Most find setting the co2 to come on a hour before the lights and off a hour before achives this.But this is something you will have to try yourself every tank is different.
With regard to your lights see Edvets post above, If you doubt them either change the tubes or to leds the choice is yours.
Keep us posted how things progress :).
 
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Not with T5. As far as i know they loose some brightness in the beginning but stay high for their entire lifespan, You can use T5's till they die. If you want to blame them and get LED's you can, but it's not nessecary:cool:

http://www.thelightedge.com/technology/lamplife

Ha ha, yes it's always preferable to have something to blame that involves a new gadget purchase.

I'll leave the lights for now as I'm pleased with the look of the tank lighting so there's no hurry. Probably best to see how the other changes fair anyway, and then decide if I can usefully increase the light.
 
I think changing your flow patten and co2 distribution will help with the problems you discribe to be honest.
I would move your drp checker to the opposite side of the tank right side put it mid to bottom of the tank it is to high up and to close to your diffuser where you have it at the min.You want your drop checker to be lime green when the lights come on and trough out your photo period.Most find setting the co2 to come on a hour before the lights and off a hour before achives this.But this is something you will have to try yourself every tank is different.
With regard to your lights see Edvets post above, If you doubt them either change the tubes or to leds the choice is yours.
Keep us posted how things progress :).

Thanks again.

It looks like the changes have already helped actually, there is faster new growth in the 'dead corner' already. I suspect the pruning (more light reaching the bottom, and flow improved) and CO2 increase has helped, and I managed to make small tweaks the circulation pump direction (which is adjustable) that now has returned a gentle sway in that region.

I had already moved the drop checker to the other side, but will lower it as you suggest.

Once I get the new acrylic pipe for the inlet, I'll post a new picture. Moving that and putting the diffuser below it should clean up the look at bit which would be nice.
 
A quick update.

I broke the inlet glass swapping over the inlet to the right side of the tank, and can’t seem to find a reasonably priced replacement so reverted back to the original Fluval inlet but connected it to my clear arcylic pipe. I still have the glass Lilly pipe on the left, so I’m quite pleased the tank looks nice but functions better.

The original Fluval inlet protrudes further down the tank, so this addresses @Daveslaney’s point. Happily, it also has a ball valve that stops the pipe emptying its water whenever I change the tank water... which makes things much simpler! And I’ve replaced the ceramic disc CO2 diffuser with an atomic type (smaller bubbles) which is placed under the inlet pipe on the right side now. I get very few bubbles surfacing, so most seem to go into the filter. The drop checker is light green when lights come on, so it must be working. It’s nice to not have the tiny bubbles everywhere as well, the water is much clearer.

I succumbed (sorry @Edvet) to Black Friday deals on LED lights... actually, I’m so pleased with the resulting aesthetics. The LED light seems to be more directional, so the wood’s contours and surface details pop in a way they didn’t before. The stem plant leaves are now turning red at the top. To avoid too much light, I used a 2000 lumens light (Arcadia ‘tropical’ LED) at the back, and a 500 lumens light (Fluval, blue and white LEDs) at the front. The colour of the light seems to have neutralised a bit of the green tint in the tank glass, and the colours are far more natural looking. It’s slightly less bright than before, as the light output is lower, but the fish colours are more pronounced. So hopefully this will work well.

I had neglected the tank for about 4/5 weeks during a bout of man-flu, followed by hectic catch-up at work. In this period, the brown algae covered the glass, the stem plants too over the whole tank and blue-green algae turned up. I stopped EI ferts half way through this period and reduced the fish feeds. And the CO2 ran out. I feared I’d messed it up, but a 70% water change and thorough clean and prune showed that the tank seems to have found a new balance. I had that lovely pond water smell in the tank, that is still there. The water is crystal clear. Green algae has replaced the brown diatoms, dusting the rocks in a nice natural-looking green. The blue-green algae is dying back naturally. And the plants look healthy, with plenty of new growth. So I’m hoping I’ve found a new balance in the tank. The fish seem happy to boot, after a bit of adjustment - they looked like they were gasping for air when I first changed the CO2 and water filter setup so I dialled the CO2 back a bit and things seemed to go back to normal.

Another another bonus: after the 4/5 week period of ‘neglect’ all the leeches have disappeared from the gravel. I had thought that leaving the gravel that long would allow them to breed, since before every week I would siphon out 4-8 of them when cleaning the gravel. And so I’d figured the minnows and gobies don’t like eating them. But I haven’t found any at all now for 2 weeks. I’m assuming either the reduced feeding of the fish (from once a day to once every other day) has meant they got hungry and hunted the leeches, or the conditions changed in some way the leeches didn’t like. Or perhaps they suffocated whilst I was playing around with the CO2 levels...

Anyway, the moss didn’t fare too well during that neglect period. The moss had over-grown, and the moss below the new growth turned brown. So I had to prune back hard, and the moss is now recovering. The hair grass seems to be coming back too, which had previously turned brown and mostly died off.

@AndreiD - the stem plant growth seems to be better. It’s too early to tell yet probably, since I cut the tops of the stems and replanted them (throwing away the old roots and lower portions that had suffered). But there’s lots of new growth that seems to be growing healthily. I still seem to have some insufficient flow at the base of the stems on the left side of the tank, since the leaves there don’t look so healthy; so I will look into hiding a very small circulation pump at the back somewhere behind the ‘tree trunk’ to draw in some flow and nutrients to this area.

So all’s good. Will post photos some time soon.
 
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