New planted tank - Struggling a little!

[ceg4048]

Yes, there is no fast way, unfortunately, to undo the damage done by algal blooms.
It may take a few weeks or even a few months to get the tank back into shape.
In the mean time, have a look at this thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/having-another-bash.11779/
and look at the timeline. The most important aspect of this thread is that the OP reorganized his thought patterns so that he could quickly recognize cause and effect and that he could then make the right decisions.

Cheers,

 

[tayloss]

I'm happy to say that it looks like things are improving slightly already.. Been away for two days and have come back to almost the same as I left it! Last time, I had to do an emergency water change with mass removal! Typical though, the CO2 bottle ran out late yesterday after the increase in rate before I when away..

Anyway, will perform another change today and will post some pictures to show you the progress and additional questions regarding the carpeting plants!

Thanks for all your help

Chris

 

[Soilwork]

London Dragon had a shrimp tank some years ago, where he suffered a brain fart, miscalculated his powder to water mix and was dosing 10x the normal EI value. His tank looked fantastic - and it was a shrimp tank, I ran an experiment where I dosed 5x EI levels - in fact, if you read the EI tutorial. look at the images. That was my 5x EI tank. So I can assure you that there will be no penalty for 2x dosing, but neither should it be necessary.

Cheers,

Hi Clive I am curious. Genuine question as it is not clear from your post, did you dose 5 x EI levels of micro nutrients as well?

Did London Dragon dose 10x micro nutrients by mistake? because when I refer to the EI article a micro nutrient such as CSM+B is stipulated.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

For background, I am using an all-in-one fertiliser containing:--

1.5 ppm Nitrate
0.4 ppm Phosphate
1.6 ppm Potassium
0.2 ppm Magnesium

And I add 2ml per day as per the instructions provided (5ml per 40l).

Is this a commercial fertiliser or something you've knocked up yourself? Are those values above what goes in the tank per dose or what's in the bottle? Can't work it out.

 

[tayloss]

Is this a commercial fertiliser or something you've knocked up yourself? Are those values above what goes in the tank per dose or what's in the bottle? Can't work it out.

That's a commercially supplied mix as I'm still very much a beginner on mixing fertilisers! Its per 5ml dosing according to the instructions... its a power mixed with 500ml RO water and I use a syringe to apply the amount required.. I give it a good shake before every dose...

I've upped it slightly and appears that it doesn't have to be exact after all

Thanks,
Chris

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Ok Buddy, There's no mention of the trace elements unless I've missed it, are you putting them in separately or do they all go in the same bottle? There's talk here of EI dosing but that isn't what you're doing or intend to unless I have that wrong. @ceg4048 seems to be describing that EI levels at 2x etc is still safe but what you are dosing is well below what is generally seen as EI threshold. You're quite a bit under I would say, this al in one seems to be designed for quite a low to medium energy tank plus you're not even halving it if it is designed for 40 ltr if you have 25.

If you dosed the recommended amounts each day weekly you would have dosed...

1.5 ppm Nitrate x7 =10.5ppm
0.4 ppm Phosphate x7 =2.8ppm
1.6 ppm Potassium x7 =11.2ppm
0.2 ppm Magnesium x7 =1.4ppm

Yours will actually be slightly lower as you're doing 2ml per 25ltrs when it should be 2.5ml per 20ltrs (In small tanks ml's matter)

EI Weekly amounts taken from UKAPS Article ironically wrote by Clive AKA @ceg4048 the geezer you've just been talking to (worth a read) Would suggest...

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

All those figures above are non limiting or to put another way more than you could possibly use even with the brightest of lighting. So your figures to me aren't that much of a worry, for all I know your lighting isn't bright enough to warrant those sort of figures, however ratio wise you seem to be a bit low on Nitrate in comparison to say Phosphate and considering you have no inhabitants the plants will have to get the vast majority of nitrogen straight from the fertiliser, in an occupied tank there will also be some added from fish poo etc. Magnesium being low also not a worry as you are getting some from you GH+ stuff and potassium is a bit more forgiving although just as essential as the nitrate and used in similar quantities by the plants.

As such if you are trying to head down the EI route then you should really be adding a bit more ferts, as you seen an improvement doubling the dose this would bare that out. At that point you probably were somewhere near EI levels so if your tds was going up you probably want to be somewhere in between those amounts OR the other alternative is to reduce the lighting a bit and stick to what you're dosing if the plants are doing well. They'll still grow just a bit slower than they were.

I have to come back to water chemistry though. RO water is just too clean, far too clean, it's totally devoid of any minerals or electrolytes and all the minerals that exist in water. Most people will use RO re-mineralising agent or mix it with some tapwater to make it a bit more fish and plant friendly. I don't know what the shrimp stuff is you're putting in but I'm guessing it doesn't replace all these minerals. What is your tapwater like regarding hardness? I would try mixing some with your RO water. Also running with no KH is a bit of a worry, what levels of KH are in the water isn't that important but it is to have some at least IMO. I'm wondering with this 0 KH water that you're pumping acidic co2 into whether you may be "crashing the system" when it comes to your filter and the reason you don't notice is because you have no fish that would surely not be happy. Would maybe explain the high ammonia readings.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

When were the ph readings took before or after injecting co2 and do you use a drop checker?

 

[tayloss]

Wow, thats a lot to take in and maybe I need to clarify/clear up a few things about what the tank was going to be!

Just to give you some reference, this is the fertiliser: https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/all-in-one-macros-micros-fertiliser-aquarium-plants-p299.html

Sorry if linking to sites isnt allowed, but best to see what I was recommended. Orginally I wanted a planted shrimp tank and decided on a buffering substrate to keep the PH below 7 for the breed of shrimp I wanted to keep. Current PH is around 6.0-6.2 depending on time of the day etc. Hence why I use a GH remineraliser to keep the buffering ability of the substate. However, I beginning to think that this isnt idea for plants as I may be missing some of the key trace elements are you've mentioned.

I should have cleared up the RO water comment, as it the reminerlise water I'm using and not pure RO/DI

The tank is too small i beleve for fish, so could become a dedcaited planted tank, but if I start to use tap water, which is very hard due to living on the south coast, it will deplete the substates buffering.

From what's been mentioned, I should be 2.5ml per day and at 5ml it appears to be a better approach?

Is this the point where I need to choice the tanks future, Planted or Shrimp and not both?

The substrate seems to promote itself as a good choice for planted tanks, so maybe the trace elements could come from it too?

 

[tayloss]

When were the ph readings took before or after injecting co2 and do you use a drop checker?

During CO2 injection and yes I do have a drop checker Wil post some pictures shortly..

 

[tayloss]

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[AverageWhiteBloke]

Sorry if linking to sites isnt allowed

They're a sponsor so link away, the more mentions they get the better I think anyway.

I should have cleared up the RO water comment, as it the reminerlise water I'm using and not pure RO/DI

Ok now that makes more sense, should be fine then although I would have though these agents also increase the KH and KH tests are generally seen as being fairly accurate.

The tank is too small i beleve for fish, so could become a dedcaited planted tank,

Lot of people keep a small number of small fish in tanks like this so they will be happy.

From what's been mentioned, I should be 2.5ml per day and at 5ml it appears to be a better approach?

If you're intending to dose at EI levels yeah they are more realistic figures but as I said that depends on your lighting. Some of the plants you have in there are slow growers, they won't grow fast even under high lighting like the Anubias. All leaves even healthy over time will get some algae on. OMG I've spilled the bins even the top scapers do, they just cut them off. Don't tell anyone I told you that Slow growers are more susceptible because under high light algae tends to gro quicker than the leaf it's on.

Is this the point where I need to choice the tanks future, Planted or Shrimp and not both?

No, plants and fish or shrimp all live happily in the same systems, in fact they compliment each other and should be done. Some top scapers don't add fish because they don't keep the tanks for long just for photos then strip them down. It also makes it easier for them to add insane amounts of ferts and co2 to speed up growth without bothering the fish,

During CO2 injection and yes I do have a drop checker Wil post some pictures shortly..

I look forward to it, just checked your link for the ferts and yes everything seems to be there you need other than if comparing to EI dosing the PO4 seems to be quite high when compared to nitrate and potassium ratio. Getting the nitrate and potassium up to ei levels would mean quite high phosphate which in itself isn't a concern. The worry would be high po4 and low nitrate and potassium. That would cause algae issues.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I don't think there's too much to be worrying about there mate. I think the tank just needs maturing a little. No worse than I've seen before. If you want to carry on with your lighting levels up the ferts a little, maybe get that spray positioned on the side of the tank as well. Looks like the flow from it is hitting the back of the roots and not getting down the front carpet and keep on top of changing water. Some shrimp would make short work of that algae in no time, especially Amanos.

 

[tayloss]

I don't think there's too much to be worrying about there mate. I think the tank just needs maturing a little. No worse than I've seen before. If you want to carry on with your lighting levels up the ferts a little, maybe get that spray positioned on the side of the tank as well. Looks like the flow from it is hitting the back of the roots and not getting down the front carpet and keep on top of changing water. Some shrimp would make short work of that algae in no time, especially Amanos.

Great Makes me feel a little better that I’m doing the right things and in the right direction

I’ve just performed a 10ltr change and removed more algae, but definitely a lot less!!!

Spray bar has been moved:

So, last point to clear up.. do I continue with 2.5ml or up it to 5ml daily?

Thank you to all of you for your help and support and am glad I’ve found this forum as it’s been so welcoming to a newbie!

Thanks,
Chris


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[AverageWhiteBloke]

If you want to make sure you have enough ferts then yes I would up it a bit, the po4 in yours is quite high, I tend to find all in one solutions are more leaning towards lower energy tanks which is probably why nitrate is quite low. EI dosing or estimative index dosing is essentially a way of making sure you have enough ferts in the tank. Tests were carried out under higher and higher lighting to see how much ferts would be needed to sustain that plant growth, obviously high lights=faster growth=more ferts for plants to grow. The values I showed posted earlier were the most you should ever need, any more ferts than that didn't make a difference and were sort of wasted. So rather than everyone testing their own particular setups and trying to find what they actually needed the theory was just put in more than you need and have it done with then you can concentrate on flow and co2. That bits quite important because for this to work you need to get those ferts swishing round your plants you need to have good water movement and because the plants will want plenty of co2/carbon to go with these ferts you need good levels of co2 round the tank.

The downside of this, if you want to call it that, is you need to keep your water and filters cleaned regularly, the cleaner the better. High light and fast plant growth means algae will jump in if you have a dirty tank in these conditions.

Some people don't want to go down this route, they prefer slower growth which is why it's advisable if you're starting out not to use too much light as you can get away with a bit more. High energy tanks have a tendency to go wrong pretty quick as if one of the above three things are wrong plants aren't happy and algae take over.

If you search for duck weed index there is another alternative by @dw1305 (his ego is getting another massage right now ) basically using floating plants or duck weed which float on the surface, not only are they beneficial overall in tanks but because they are on the surface (nearest to the light) and they have unlimited co2 (co2 is easier to get from the air than underwater) they will tell you if you have enough ferts. They get through a lot so if they're doing well you can pretty much say the ones under water have enough ferts as well. They eliminate the worry about co2 in much the same way as EI eliminates worries about enough ferts...theoretically.

The path is up to you.

Thank you to all of you for your help and support and am glad I’ve found this forum as it’s been so welcoming to a newbie!

No problem, people here a very passionate about the hobby and enjoy helping each other as much as their own tanks. In fact you could say that they're all our tanks, I enjoy seeing them coming on as much as my own.

Be lucky.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Clive I am curious. Genuine question as it is not clear from your post, did you dose 5 x EI levels of micro nutrients as well?

Did London Dragon dose 10x micro nutrients by mistake? because when I refer to the EI article a micro nutrient such as CSM+B is stipulated.

Hi,
Yes, I dosed 5X everything, including micros. At the same time I wanted to disprove the entire "...Hard water is bad for plants..." propaganda so I raised the KH to 15 or higher and raised the GH to 26 or higher. Kept it like that for couple of years. No problemo.

LondonDragon miscalculated and dose 10X of everything, including micros. A few months later he woke up and adjusted it back down to standard levels. What's the big deal?
The key has always been keeping the tank clean. Nutrient/CO2 input yields extra Oxygen output by the plants. The plants produce massive levels of organic waste which has to be removed via massive water changes. I hate doing water changes, but I change more water than anybody I know - 90% sometime a couple times a week. That removes a LOT of DOC and keeps the fish healthy. So they can resist water parameters that are less than optimal such as high KH/TDS. Oxygen and cleanliness has an incredible impact on the system's health. Fish resist pathogen attacks and plants resist algal attack.

People are misled all the time about Calcium interfering with Magnesium and other metals. It's all rubbish because plants uptake nutrition through their leaves. All that interference talk has to do with what's happening in the roots of land plants where it is a problem. Land plants do not have nearly the capability to uptake micronutrients by the foliar method. The construct of terrestrial leaves is completely different than aquatic. That's why when you buy a new plant grown terrestrially in a nursery and then dump them underwater they struggle because those leaves and roots must change their physiology quickly or perish. Water changes everything...so the whole formula of how ions and molecules diffuse across the leaf membrane and across the roots is entirely different.

Did you realize that all the trees in the Amazon - even hardwoods trees like Mahogany, Rosewood and Fig - are actually aquatic plants? When the rain forest floods, the trees are inundated with water, maybe up to 15 meters high. The roots of the trees undergo a major physiological change in order allow Oxygen to reach down and to be distributed under water.

People are so programmed to fret over nutrients and they miss the more important aspects of survival, which is gas exchange.

Never worry about this metal or that balance or that ratio. The plants always figure it out and they have mechanisms to counter toxicity. They have very limited ability however, of countering suffocation.

The OP is also advised to clean the leaves of his plants using his fingers to wipe of the biofilm check this post https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/algae-problems-help-please.6331/page-2#post-72428

The biofilm covering all submerged surface is where a lot of algae live, but more importantly, this film, as thin as it is, acts as a major barrier to the diffusion of CO2 and Oxygen across the leaf membrane. Your CO2 will be more effective if these leaf surfaces are kept clean. Grated, carpet plants are difficult to clean but any algae or debris can be cleaned using a toothbrush twirled to catch the filaments and to drag them out.

Cheers,

 

[Soilwork]

Hi,
Yes, I dosed 5X everything, including micros. At the same time I wanted to disprove the entire "...Hard water is bad for plants..." propaganda so I raised the KH to 15 or higher and raised the GH to 26 or higher. Kept it like that for couple of years. No problemo.

LondonDragon miscalculated and dose 10X of everything, including micros. A few months later he woke up and adjusted it back down to standard levels. What's the big deal?
The key has always been keeping the tank clean. Nutrient/CO2 input yields extra Oxygen output by the plants. The plants produce massive levels of organic waste which has to be removed via massive water changes. I hate doing water changes, but I change more water than anybody I know - 90% sometime a couple times a week. That removes a LOT of DOC and keeps the fish healthy. So they can resist water parameters that are less than optimal such as high KH/TDS. Oxygen and cleanliness has an incredible impact on the system's health. Fish resist pathogen attacks and plants resist algal attack.

People are misled all the time about Calcium interfering with Magnesium and other metals. It's all rubbish because plants uptake nutrition through their leaves. All that interference talk has to do with what's happening in the roots of land plants where it is a problem. Land plants do not have nearly the capability to uptake micronutrients by the foliar method. The construct of terrestrial leaves is completely different than aquatic. That's why when you buy a new plant grown terrestrially in a nursery and then dump them underwater they struggle because those leaves and roots must change their physiology quickly or perish. Water changes everything...so the whole formula of how ions and molecules diffuse across the leaf membrane and across the roots is entirely different.

Did you realize that all the trees in the Amazon - even hardwoods trees like Mahogany, Rosewood and Fig - are actually aquatic plants? When the rain forest floods, the trees are inundated with water, maybe up to 15 meters high. The roots of the trees undergo a major physiological change in order allow Oxygen to reach down and to be distributed under water.

People are so programmed to fret over nutrients and they miss the more important aspects of survival, which is gas exchange.

Never worry about this metal or that balance or that ratio. The plants always figure it out and they have mechanisms to counter toxicity. They have very limited ability however, of countering suffocation.

The OP is also advised to clean the leaves of his plants using his fingers to wipe of the biofilm check this post https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/algae-problems-help-please.6331/page-2#post-72428

The biofilm covering all submerged surface is where a lot of algae live, but more importantly, this film, as thin as it is, acts as a major barrier to the diffusion of CO2 and Oxygen across the leaf membrane. Your CO2 will be more effective if these leaf surfaces are kept clean. Grated, carpet plants are difficult to clean but any algae or debris can be cleaned using a toothbrush twirled to catch the filaments and to drag them out.

Cheers,

Thanks for the clarification. I agree about gas exchange and water cleanliness. Just paying attention to these particular aspects lately has improved growth.

I'm going to trial the full nutrient dosing regimen again and see what happens. Water changes will be even more frequent as the tank is only small.

Sorry to OP if my posts have taken anything away from the main topic of discussion.

 

[tayloss]

No problem on jumping on the thread, we are all here to learn right?

Looking like the tank is starting to improve and algae isn’t a dominate factor, so again, thank you for your patience and understanding! Going to work on water change TDS levels and keep the ferts on the higher side for now and monitor..

I’ve also added some frogbit to add some movement on the surface and has already decided to multiple!!

Thanks,
Chris


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[tayloss]

Thanks for the clarification. I agree about gas exchange and water cleanliness. Just paying attention to these particular aspects lately has improved growth.

I'm going to trial the full nutrient dosing regimen again and see what happens. Water changes will be even more frequent as the tank is only small.

Sorry to OP if my posts have taken anything away from the main topic of discussion.

Do you have a thread on your tank?, just wanted to be nosey at what you are up too with yours?


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[Soilwork]

Do you have a thread on your tank?, just wanted to be nosey at what you are up too with yours?


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It’s been very experimental of late so nothing to show exactly except for a lot of BGA. Seems I haven’t been feeding enough or providing enough nutrition and water movement. Growth is starting again after a while of stagnation so once I get things in order I will upload something of a story. Water changes have been pivotal. Twice sometimes three times a week.

Regards

CJ

 

[ceg4048]

nothing to show exactly except for a lot of BGA.

CJ,
BGA = poor NO3 uptake.
Increase KNO3 per EI dosing regimen, clean filter, and improve flow/distribution as necessary.

Cheers,